• SONAR
  • The "Sonar for Live Performance Backing track" Thread
2017/11/17 18:50:45
Cactus Music
Please keep topic to Backing tracks for traditional Rock, country, Jazz and Folk. Not live VST, that's a different topic. 
 
Every once in a while someone asks this question and I know there are many of us here who play live using backing tracks. 
I thought a thread to share ideas and what works and what doesn't work might be a good resource for people kicking the tires. 
 
As far as creating backing tracks goes Sonar for me is king of the hill. It's a great midi sequencer and it's included VST's are all you need to create a pretty good sounding backing band. As someone who started with a Roland 505 for drums and a Korg Poly 800 playing Bass ( very badly)  what we now have is amazing to me. Not only can you use midi but we can also mix in real instruments as part of the band. 
 
Originally we used midi sequences to drive outboard hardware synths. VST's were a long way down the road. Those sound modules that were on par and often worse than MS Wavetable sounds cost $$$. I lugged an Atari 1040 ST to 100's of gigs along with a rack of sound modules and effect units all weighing over 100lbs.  For me that's all been replaced by a little Asus netbook that weighs about 4lbs. 
 
So first there are many approaches to using backing tracks. Most importantly is what instruments do you require? 
For most of my gigs I've used a pretty sparse backing of just Drums and Bass. Very few of my old tracks included piano, organ or keyboard parts. The reason was disk space if you can believe that. I now include keyboards in every song to provide 'glue". 
I don''t believe in overdoing it or we can be walking a fine line between a musician performing and a Karaoke singer. 
 
Many top 40 bands have relied on sequencers to fill in the holes when they didn't have a Keyboard, Bass or drummer. 
 
Those are the 3 instruments midi does best and if you, like me have those 3 instruments playing following the backing track is straight forward. Please don't even attempt to use midi for guitar parts or I will personally come and unplug your PA :)   
For Bass. Keyboard and drums backing tracks all you need is a stereo or even mono mix. Therefore any playback device will work. 
 
Where it becomes tricky is when you have a real bass player or drummer. Then you cannot just use a stereo track. Bass and drums are what keep time so now you need to follow a click track or? Will get into that latter as the thread progresses. 
 
So making the tracks is easy with Sonar but now lets chew on how to work with this live on stage. 
I'll give you my system which I've used since 2004. 
I play stereo wave files using Win Amp. 
I choose Win Amp because it does a few things no other player seem to do. The most important for me is you can set it to Manual Playlist advance. You can drag the songs around on the set list on the fly. It will re open with your set list intact even if you forgot to save it. You can change the font size. You can re arrange the GUI to fit your screen. And I also control it  with a USB foot switch. 
Because it's dead simple to make a mix of 3 instruments I've rarely had balance issues with my tracks. I proof them through the PA and have a few tricks I use to keep everything the same song to song. At this point I see no advantage to having say 3 tracks output. I am going to give Sonars Playlist a try someday but the only reason is so I will have MIDI to control my effects. 
 
Well that's enough for now.
 
Please add your set up and ideas and yes for sure ask questions. 
 
Things to ponder
Is it better to use pure midi or pure audio, which is more stable? 
Why do you need multi track output and how do you set this up?
What do you use for lyrics?
Other than Sonar what do you find works the best for live playback? 
 
 
 
 
 
2017/11/17 19:20:05
Thedoccal
If I were to do this, I would make stems (audio stems) out of the individual tracks.  Group all similar instruments together into 4-8 separate audio files.
I would probably then make two version of these stems:
1. Separate the long audio stems into sections (verse 1, 2, chorus 1, 2, bridge, etc) and put into the Matrix View
2. Left as an entire song in the Track View.
 
Next would be figuring out how to make a song play list.  Never done that yet.
2017/11/17 19:57:30
Starise
I'll be interested to see how this progresses as well. I have been pouring over Youtube to see what others have done or are doing. Lots of folks are downloading a 4.99 app and using their iPad or iPhone to play the tracks. 
 
One guy who does a lot of one man band gigs is ripping karaoke files with a Youtube downloader, importing them into windows media player and adding the words into it so he has a scrolling teleprompter when he sings.
 
I have a drummer who will need a click to play backing tracks. No matter what you use to play the tracks the general technique seems to be this: Take a 1/8" stereo male from playback device to 2 x 1/4" male mono plugs > into dual D-box>send the audio side out to the house> using a d-box with through jacks, attach short 1/4" cables from the through jacks on both sides to a small mixer. That mixer serves the drummer with L/R panned. Alternately you could send both the click and the audio out to the house who could then send it back to individual listeners separate. 
 
Being a keys player/guitar player I've toyed with all kinds of ideas. The accompaniment keyboards, even the better ones can sound cheesy. I have successfully used loopers but everything has to be right. Not like playing to a track. I have used laptops as synths on stage. All of that has  risk factors built in that can go wrong if you don't remember everything and do it right  every time. 
 
Showing up and finding out they relocated everything since the last time you were there and you only have 10 minutes to set up doesn't make that any better.
 
If something can go wrong it will go wrong and usually at the worst times. Still lotsa folks successfully doing it. Tech is great when it works, but if you don't have a backup plan things can go downhill fast.
 
Concerning using Sonar. I lean toward mixing tracks down on it and exporting to something I can load into a simpler program/device. That's how I'm thinking right now, but it could change tomorrow. 
 
Most big acts using lappys as backup and Ableton or otherwise have two or more systems identical both running at the same time. If one dies mid show, they simply mix the other one in.
2017/11/17 20:39:21
Joe_A
I do the scrolling teleprompter thing. With a couple cheap subscriptions it's way easier to have the words than creating screens from scratch with lyrics. Honestly I benefit greatly from having scrolling lyrics.
2017/11/17 20:46:22
Cactus Music
I'll interject that there is 2 way people might work. 
 
1-Backing tracks that follow a set in stone arrangement. ( what I've always have used) 
2- Live music playback that can be manipulated on the fly - that's complicated and not really something Sonar would be good at, other software is recommended so lets stick to #1 if at all possible.  
We can still talk about multi track VS stereo playback, that's cool. 
 
Starise I'm glad you found this here, I was going to post a link on the other thread. 
 
1-One guy who does a lot of one man band gigs is ripping karaoke files with a Youtube downloader, importing them into windows media player and adding the words into it so he has a scrolling teleprompter when he sings.
 
Like I said, we have to maintain our reputation as REAL musicians and that guy might as well leave his guitar at home.  My show has been kept simple because at a certain point you are no longer the source of the music and just a singer / a Karaoke singer. I've been subject to other solo acts while out an about and the best quality ones were when that person was a great singer and guitar player and they carried the show. And it always involve hi quality backing tracks. Some I could tell were downloaded midi and some I've heard were real audio recordings obviously paid for and not home made. But the person spent the time to get a good sound. Many don't and therefore the bad reputation of solo acts. 
 
It seems very few solo performers actually roll there own like me.
 I certainly do take a shortcut these days and if I find a free midi track with good drums I will use it as a starting point. But most of my tracks I have made myself starting in 1984. I have at least 300 midi files I made myself so I'm a bit unique in that way. For me it's personal pride "Yes, I'm a one man band and yes I (mostly) play all the instruments". I keep to max 4 instruments for this reason. Drums, Bass, Piano and Organ. Oh I have one song with a horn part..Ring of Fire. 
 
2. Concerning using Sonar. I lean toward mixing tracks down on it and exporting to something I can load into a simpler program/device. That's how I'm thinking right now, but it could change tomorrow. 
 
Yes smart man. And as you said, complicated set ups are going to fail you at a bad time. I bring 2 fully loaded laptops, My Netbook is my main playback and my old Sony is a backup, background music and for lyrics. 
Personally I don't understand why one would need to bother mixing a multi tracks at the gig? First it would hog a lot of channel strips, second I'd rather do the mixing ahead of time and get it right. And third, as I said, how hard is it to make a good mix of Bass, Piano and drums?  One less thing to go wrong I say. 
 
Hooking things up: 
Well I use both the mini jack and a  $30 Behringer USB interface and there's no difference I can hear at all. 
Playing a stereo wave file is something just about anything can do but I do like using the more solid cables with the Behringer. I also bought a Radial Two Trim for when I do shows via a FOH with a snake. Ultimately we would use a proper audio interface if we go with Multi track for obvious reasons. 
 
May I ask what part of your band do you need to have pre recorded? The Keyboard so you can play guitar? 
 
 
2017/11/18 02:09:45
cparmerlee
Cactus Music
I play stereo wave files using Win Amp. 

I stumbled upon this program recently: https://soundplant.org/about.htm
 
It looks like it would be very useful for using live tracks.  It is simpler than Ableton Live, but has a lot of capability.
 
2017/11/18 08:16:42
tenfoot
My performance system has been Cakewalk based since cakelive for DOS, but has certainly evolved. I currently run 24+ track backing. Each track has its own channel return via USB to an X32 digital mixer, so mixes are fully flexible both individually (semi permanent changes within sonar project) and globally (eg changes to 'kick' channel on desk at a particular venue). I also run midi tracks for light and production control using an Entecc DMXIS lighting controller (via loop be midi), as well as patch changes on various outboard gear. All of this is played back via a Cakewalk playlist, and controlled using an X-Tempo POK foot controller using Bome Midi Translator.
 
The system is rock solid, as is the Cakewalk playlist once you get your head around its quirks:)  The only caveat I would add is that whilst I use many active VST effects, I always bounce VST synths to audio and archive the synth tracks before performance. I can always unarchive them should fundamental changes be required.
 
There really isn't any another sync enabled DAW software that allows you to load a setlist on the fly (loading whilst a project is playing) utilising entire native projects containing both midi and audio. A really undersold feature I believe.
2017/11/18 08:43:20
Sixfinger
I do use Sonar, I have a lite version installed on an older windows xp lappy.  I like having the markers in the project, Verse Chorus Solo 1 Solo 2 etc, in case my mind wanders off the path. I create a project for each song with a stereo mix, If I needed a click I would put that on a separate track and probably make the mix mono for simplicity
 
For a playlist I just make an html file, A list of links to my song projects all in a single folder. It's like a song list page in 3 columns, I can see over a hundred songs at once in a readable font.  Double click a song on the list, it loads fast with a singe wav file.  Now I can quickly do the songs in any order.
2017/11/18 09:59:20
Skyline_UK
I have a trio which plays in pubs and I make all the backing tracks in Sonar Platinum, including sometimes guitar lead parts so I can duet live with myself, e.g. on "I Saw The Light" and "Hotel California".  I master them in Ozone so they are nice and punchy, mix them down to stereo WAV then import them to iTunes, changing to AAC. I load them to an iPod and set them to individual play, i.e. not continuous, so I select and load them as required, the iPod mounted on my mic stand. They play through the PA along with the three live vocals. (Sometimes we pre-record vocal parts to add extra layers and/or harmonies to go with the live vocals).  It works pretty good and sounds are high quality.  Gear logistics is a lot easier than when I played in a full band, we have a small footprint and less members equals less strife!
2017/11/18 22:30:41
Cactus Music
Tenfoot:
Thanks, I think I've read a few posts of yours about your successful use of the Playlist. I can see why you use multi track output as you must be running to a FOH system with a sound person. That's good information as I keep forgetting how a re mix might be required as you move from room to room. But, I guess I have a problem thinking of any Rock and Roll or Country for that matter that would use more than a few tracks? I guess R&B with a 10 piece horn section :) So You have my curiosity,, what are those 24 tracks? I can see maybe 5 or 7 for drums. A Piano, and organ, after that I'm only pondering. Is this electronic music? 
 
Sixfinger:
Interesting. Yes any old version of Sonar should do it. That's why I bought Home Studio. My Netbook also runs XP,  
 
But I'm wondering, if your only using stereo tracks why would you use Sonar? I see you have a system to make a playlist, but a simple music player would do the same without having to make that weird list you have. 
I'm pretty sure all music players can drag and drop and move song orders around on the fly. Win Amp is certainly dead simple this way. 
I can do 2 things.
Drop the whole folder containing my Wave files into Winamps playlist and then move them around. 
Or I can drag and drop each song to the playlist to put them in the order I want. Both take about the same time. 
I can save as many playlist as I want. Once I've made a playlist for a certain gig I always save it. When that gig comes up again I can look at what I played. 
I also like to skip songs and I might play them later, On my break I move the songs I skipped down the list so I'll see them. 
My main song folder contains around 80 songs which is 2x as many as I ever use. I have over 200 Backing tracks. So I also have a folder of extra songs so if some drunk punter asks for YMCA I can grab it in 10 seconds and drop it on the list. I can also grab the lyrics which are all in a desktop folder stored as TXT files that open in a tiny box. 
 
Skyline:
Sounds like your another stereo track person. I have an iPad and I was going to use it as a back up but I found iTunes hard to control. It certainly hated my home made songs and broke them into a bunch of albums and made a big mess. I guess one needs to learn how it works but it certainly is not user friendly. I use iTune all the time at work and purchase songs for our residents and load the iPods etc. But It just didn't seem to like me taking control. 
You should look into getting a TC Voice live, I just ordered the Voice Live Acoustic. 
 
 
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