gearandguitars


http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/780839-recording-wide-electric-rhythm-guitar.html

And more on “wide guitars”.
 
 
 
Are we all even in the same thread?

ry1633


  I'm asking because I want to be able to pan them left or right. I've only been able to record them left. i.e. my mono tracks won't pan to the right at all.

I think you're confusing things totally. When you record a mono input on a stereo track, the signal gets recorded on one side of the stereo track only, simply and obviously because there is no input of any signal on the other side. That signal you can not pan anywhere. The jack inputs of audio interfaces are always mono. 


When you record a mono signal on mono track, you can pan it to you liking.


The only way you can record a mono source, like guitar, in stereo, is having one track with input something like "XX interface 1 left" and another track "XX interface 2, right". Then you use, say, one microphone to record on track one and another to track two.

This is in reply to Bob's question about recording keyboards. Sorry to get off the initial topic, but it's really related.

A guitar, electric or acoustic, is fundamentally a monophonic instrument and should normally be treated as such. For that matter, so are conventional synthesizers. Romplers, OTOH, usually feature stereophonic samples or effects that would seem to warrant stereophonic recording. There are, however, benefits to recording even those instruments in mono.

Romplers and software sample players are designed to sound good in the music store: full, fat and wide and all-enveloping. Trouble is, that's exactly what you don't want in a complex music production. Rather, you want each voice in the mix to have its own well-defined place in both the panorama and in the frequency spectrum. Mono tracks give you more mix options, and actually result in a better sense of stereo width in the final product.

Don't worry about losing anything by recording your Motif, Fantom or Triton in mono. Most of their samples aren't true stereo anyhow, but are just effected in ways to give the illusion that they are. Most patches sound just fine either collapsed to mono or just recording one side.

(One exception comes to mind: Leslies. That's a true stereo source that needs to be recorded in stereo for best effect. But even then, stereo may not be necessary. Deep Purple's sound was heavily dependent on the Hammond sound, but it was not, AFAIK, ever recorded in stereo. It's usually mono but given width with effects and pan movement.)

Back to topic: the vast majority of guitar tracks heard in commercial recordings are monophonic, as are most acoustic guitar tracks. Of course, they don't sound mono, but that's because you're either hearing more than one guitar, or a stereo effect - not because the part was originally recorded in stereo.

What was the question again? Oh, yeh. How to record in stereo. The flippant answer is "don't". 

But if you really want to record a stereo guitar track you must start with an actual stereo source. Two mics on the same speaker cabinet do not make a stereo source. Two amplifiers with different effects and tone settings positioned on opposite sides of the room, that's a real stereo source. One close mic and another distant room mic could be treated as a stereo source. Guitar through a Leslie, that'd be stereo. And that's about it.

I'm asking because I want to be able to pan them left or right. I've only been able to record them left. i.e. my mono tracks won't pan to the right at all.

That means you recorded a mono signal onto one side of a stereo track. When you record, you should select either the Left or Right input, but not the stereo input. 


You can fix this by bouncing the stereo track to a mono track. Just select the track, then select Tracks-Bounce to Track and select Mono from the Channel Format pulldown. 

As someone who has recorded and produced electronic music for years the advice to record any modern synth with stereo outputs in mono is just simply wrong. Dave is way off here. Many instruments go to great lengths to create beautiful wide images and as such they should at least be captured that way all the time. Even if the samples themselves are not stereo the processing that comes after will certainly be. For example I have got a Roland JD800 synth at the moment and the samples are all mono but you can create 4 layered patches and process these as well to create superb wide final images. Often in a mix these will sit very well in fact. You would not want to miss out on how they sound. 

I have got some very nice Kurzweil K2000 CR ROMS that have been totally recorded and processed in stereo of things like pianos and Russian orchestras. The imaging is breath taking and you would certainly not want to miss out on it believe me.     

Also if you own a synth you will know it inside and out right? You can always get into the patch and effect programming and alter wet/dry and depth settings and panning to change the way a patch might finally sound too. Some synth patches do not collapse well into mono either especially if they are using phase flipping techniques as part of the effects section. It is still better to record these in stereo and perhaps reverse the phase of one side before collapsing down to a more mono sound. I experienced this with a Wavestation patch a while ago. Sounded way better this way compared to just collapsing in mono before recording.

But overall, synth stereo images will often collapse down to mono very nicely. Think of recording in stereo but have the option collapsing to mono if required later. Your effects will often never create quite the same width that a great instrument can do internally. For example in my Emulator sampler every voice even within one preset can have its pan position gently modulated by an LFO. The range, depth and speed all controllable. Not only that but touch response can be programmed into those LFO settings. You have to hear this to believe it in a pad sound for example. No effects processing after a mono recording will even come close to that. 

Two very wide stereo synths don't have to be mixed and panned hard L and hard R either. You might get a better result by panning one Centre to hard L and the other Centre to hard R. You wont be able to do any of that if you have recorded both in mono.  You will need certain plug-ins to do these things but any plug designed to handle and process stereo signals can do it. Sonar has Channel Tools of course. 

As far as mono sources like guitars in fact you can be a bit daring and try recording these things in stereo. An acoustic guitar even in a small space will sound better in stereo. The trick is to use co incident diaphragms ie the two diaphragms should be in the same spot or very close to each other. Even an XY Co-incident setup at the 12th fret on an acoustic will yield a much more interesting image than one mic. You can also do MS recordings as well for later control after. MS gives you the ability to either get closer to the M mic or more stereo by altering the balance of the MS signals in decoding.

Same goes for an electric guitar into a quad box say. You could use an MS or XY co-incident or near coincident setup and you will get a wider image on playback, especially if you pull back a tad and get the guitar sound at the tip of the flame. These techniques will also collapse into mono nicely too.

Also if an electric guitarist plugs into a preamp and there is a stereo out from that, it will also be worthwhile to capture in stereo as well. Many guitar preamps create interesting wider stereo effects. You can always do a quick mono check during the recording stage and if it does not collapse well then you can always do a great mono recording instead.

As someone who has recorded for more years than I like to say, I still use the old school buss. Set the input of the track for interface L or R, not Stereo! This will record your track as a single mono track. Then #1>I then use either the FX bin to place a stereo effect, reverb,delay,chorus,etc. OR #2>I set up a stereo buss and place the effect there. Make sure the effect output is completely wet, no dry signal. A send is then created on the track and it's output is sent to the buss. The buss output is set to go to the Master Out Buss.
The second option is much more flexible as far as mixing the effect with the dry guitar sound. You can keep your dry guitar in the center while the bussed effect is wide left and right without panning. Warning! This sound can become very dense depending on your settings.
I mostly cut as was mentioned before. Several mono takes with different guitars and different amps. This layering will give you a huge sound most times without even having to use an effect. After all, that sound is what chorusing is built for. You will have to pay close attention trying to match exactly what was played on the prior recordings. I usually don't monitor all the guitar tracks as I go. You can lose focus by listening to several tracks at once as you record. Use the best track you recorded first to monitor as you record the new track. When you are done, then turn them all on. Hope this tip helps.

The output of a line 6 Pod has a left and right output. Stereo right? Or is it two mono channels with different parts of the amp sim and cabinet sim sent to each output to create a spatial image? That's all stereo is, an algorythm-routine, that moves different parts of the sound data to different spots in the two channels, giving the illusion of a moving sound feild. Stereo algorythms don't neccesarily do what you might want to do with creating a moving sound image of a guitar. So two mono tracks is much more manipulatable if you're doing some hard panning or expanding spatial effect.

mixsit

gearandguitars


http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/780839-recording-wide-electric-rhythm-guitar.html

And more on “wide guitars”.
 
 
 
Are we all even in the same thread?

I think so? 

ry1633


  I'm sure this has been covered before, but how do you record guitar tracks that in stereo that can be panned right or left? Do I need a stereo cable to go. Or is there an I/O setting I need to tweak? 

daveny5

I'm asking because I want to be able to pan them left or right. I've only been able to record them left. i.e. my mono tracks won't pan to the right at all.

That means you recorded a mono signal onto one side of a stereo track. When you record, you should select either the Left or Right input, but not the stereo input. 


You can fix this by bouncing the stereo track to a mono track. Just select the track, then select Tracks-Bounce to Track and select Mono from the Channel Format pulldown. 

ah... now I understand the OP's question, and... the correct answer... 

So, I'll go back to the Pod example. Select the left mono input for the left Pod output, select the right mono input for the right Pod output. So you have dual mono tracks selected in Sonar, but what is coming out of the Pod and it's digital algorythms? There's a lot of different results possible depending on what you are sending to the DAW-Sonar.
Here's another example. I have a Martin acoustic electric that will split the body mic and bridge pickup and send them to seperate channels for recording. They call it stereo on the switch, but is it two mono channels from different mics? The two sound sources sound very different due to the type and location of the mic-pickup. So, the body mic being in one place and the bridge pickup being in another place create a moving sound image depending on which device picks up the vibrations first in terms of milli-seconds, nano seconds. You have to build a stereo image by creating two slightly different spatial images of the same sound.