FastBikerBoy

Bristol_Jonesey


The only way I get a noticeable difference is by really cranking up the gain/drive - and that (for me) sort of defeats the whole purpose.

That's pretty much where I am but I've been led to believe that the effect is cumulative so listening back to single tracks isn't going to reveal much but an instance on all tracks and busses makes a bigger difference to the resulting mix.

Only just noticed this Karl.

You are absolutely correct - I've now had a chance to play with it a bit more and inserting it across many tracks does yield a certain mojo I wasn't detecting when simply strapped across the master bus.

Does Roey have a view on this??

To the person who asked for specifics on the guitar sounds in "When the Grid Goes Down":

Lead: Variax > POD HD500 > into Sonar > Sonitus Delay > PC EQ with substantial 100Hz cut > CE

Rhythm: Variax > POD HD500 > into Sonar > PC EQ with substantial 1K boost and 300Hz cut > Concrete Limiter > CE > Sonitus Delay

I forget which Variax settingsI used, but I'm pretty sure it was the magnetic pickups, not any of the emulations.

Tempo-synched filtered guitar in right channel: Loop from my AdrenaLinn Guitars sample library (either PRS or Les Paul), PC EQ with substantial cut at 70Hz and slight boost at 2kHz

The rhythm and tempo-synched guitars used a constant amount of "rhythmic" automation for additional dynamics.

Here's a good way to get a handle on what the CE does.

I created three sine wave test tones - 100Hz, 700Hz, and 7kHz and loaded them into individual tracks in Sonar, then placed the CE channel version in the master. The tracks were set up for exclusive solo so I could A/B/C among them, and did my variations within the CE insedrted in the Master bus. The CE Trim was set to 1 o'clock, and the Drive up full to make the changes obvious.

The Trim button seems like a "more" or "less" control. If we accept that the CE adds non-linearities characteristic of analog electronics and transformers, then the Trim control simply choose how much you want to accentuate those non-linearities. The Drive control determines the nature of the non-linearities.

It's VERY easy to hear what happens to the waveform when you're listening to sine waves. The S is the most subtle and rounded, the N does the most coloring, and the A lies in between. I applied the CE to three 100Hz sine waves and loaded the waves into WaveLab to see the waveforms. The "look" of the waveforms correlated to what I was hearing: S was the most sine-like but the trailing wave of the positive peak is very slightly more of a line than a curve. A flattened the peaks more, but remained fairly rounded while N didn't flatten the peaks as much, but altered the waveform shape more radically.

With the low frequencies isolated, it sounded to me like these differences are intended to emulate the midrange "ring" you hear with transformers in the signal path.

I'll be covering this in depth in an upcoming Sonar Technique column in Sound on Sound.

Thanks forall your input, Craig.  Looking forward to your articles, as usual.

Anderton


Here's a good way to get a handle on what the CE does.

I created three sine wave test tones - 100Hz, 700Hz, and 7kHz and loaded them into individual tracks in Sonar, then placed the CE channel version in the master. The tracks were set up for exclusive solo so I could A/B/C among them, and did my variations within the CE insedrted in the Master bus. The CE Trim was set to 1 o'clock, and the Drive up full to make the changes obvious.

The Trim button seems like a "more" or "less" control. If we accept that the CE adds non-linearities characteristic of analog electronics and transformers, then the Trim control simply choose how much you want to accentuate those non-linearities. The Drive control determines the nature of the non-linearities.

It's VERY easy to hear what happens to the waveform when you're listening to sine waves. The S is the most subtle and rounded, the N does the most coloring, and the A lies in between. I applied the CE to three 100Hz sine waves and loaded the waves into WaveLab to see the waveforms. The "look" of the waveforms correlated to what I was hearing: S was the most sine-like but the trailing wave of the positive peak is very slightly more of a line than a curve. A flattened the peaks more, but remained fairly rounded while N didn't flatten the peaks as much, but altered the waveform shape more radically.

With the low frequencies isolated, it sounded to me like these differences are intended to emulate the midrange "ring" you hear with transformers in the signal path.

I'll be covering this in depth in an upcoming Sonar Technique column in Sound on Sound.

The above is the problem I have with science and why it will never make sense to me. Not picking on you Craig...I think the world of you as a teacher and an engineer...but I have to question why on earth you'd judge any of this by using a sine wave? We don't make music with sine waves...so why would it hold any credibility at all? If we create a guitar track or a bass guitar track and we can barely hear the effects of these CE's, isn't that enough proof that they really aren't anything to brag about other than maybe they got the saturated drive part down?
 
It's like the guy that ran analyzers on these when they first came out. What good does that do any of us if what the analyzer reports isn't actually heard on a track? I've been talking about these in a few other threads and have pretty much exhausted my testing with these things. I can simulate them with eq as far as the slight top end coloration they add. The saturation....it's one of the best "good drive" sounds I've heard...I just wish you didn't have to jack so much gain to hear what these things do. And, all I hear no matter what I try is a bit of top end with drive that I don't necessarily want. So to me, these things are pretty much a waste as far as CE's go. I refer to them now as "simulated pre-amps" without the warmth in color.
 
Again man, honest I'm not meaning to sound like I'm picking on you. I respect you too much for that. I just simply don't understand some of the scientific methods people come up with to test this stuff where in reality, my tracks I create will not sound like a sine wave or any type of test tone signal. If people can hear a big difference while using a sine wave, what good does that really do anyone? I have to use too much of this drive/trim to hear these plugs. I don't need drive in my sounds and every console *I* have ever worked on in my career, none of them were used to over-drive a signal. When we did drive something...it sounded horrible. I just can't buy into these things....that goes for the Waves NLS too. Just more hype that really doesn't make a difference to where someone should use these things all over the place in my opinion. Good saturators though, I'll give them that.
 
What are your thoughts hearing my comments in that regard?
 
-Danny

The plot thickens . . .

Danny Danzi

Anderton


Here's a good way to get a handle on what the CE does.

I created three sine wave test tones - 100Hz, 700Hz, and 7kHz and loaded them into individual tracks in Sonar, then placed the CE channel version in the master. The tracks were set up for exclusive solo so I could A/B/C among them, and did my variations within the CE insedrted in the Master bus. The CE Trim was set to 1 o'clock, and the Drive up full to make the changes obvious.

The Trim button seems like a "more" or "less" control. If we accept that the CE adds non-linearities characteristic of analog electronics and transformers, then the Trim control simply choose how much you want to accentuate those non-linearities. The Drive control determines the nature of the non-linearities.

It's VERY easy to hear what happens to the waveform when you're listening to sine waves. The S is the most subtle and rounded, the N does the most coloring, and the A lies in between. I applied the CE to three 100Hz sine waves and loaded the waves into WaveLab to see the waveforms. The "look" of the waveforms correlated to what I was hearing: S was the most sine-like but the trailing wave of the positive peak is very slightly more of a line than a curve. A flattened the peaks more, but remained fairly rounded while N didn't flatten the peaks as much, but altered the waveform shape more radically.

With the low frequencies isolated, it sounded to me like these differences are intended to emulate the midrange "ring" you hear with transformers in the signal path.

I'll be covering this in depth in an upcoming Sonar Technique column in Sound on Sound.

The above is the problem I have with science and why it will never make sense to me. Not picking on you Craig...I think the world of you as a teacher and an engineer...but I have to question why on earth you'd judge any of this by using a sine wave? We don't make music with sine waves...so why would it hold any credibility at all? If we create a guitar track or a bass guitar track and we can barely hear the effects of these CE's, isn't that enough proof that they really aren't anything to brag about other than maybe they got the saturated drive part down?
 
It's like the guy that ran analyzers on these when they first came out. What good does that do any of us if what the analyzer reports isn't actually heard on a track? I've been talking about these in a few other threads and have pretty much exhausted my testing with these things. I can simulate them with eq as far as the slight top end coloration they add. The saturation....it's one of the best "good drive" sounds I've heard...I just wish you didn't have to jack so much gain to hear what these things do. And, all I hear no matter what I try is a bit of top end with drive that I don't necessarily want. So to me, these things are pretty much a waste as far as CE's go. I refer to them now as "simulated pre-amps" without the warmth in color.
 
Again man, honest I'm not meaning to sound like I'm picking on you. I respect you too much for that. I just simply don't understand some of the scientific methods people come up with to test this stuff where in reality, my tracks I create will not sound like a sine wave or any type of test tone signal. If people can hear a big difference while using a sine wave, what good does that really do anyone? I have to use too much of this drive/trim to hear these plugs. I don't need drive in my sounds and every console *I* have ever worked on in my career, none of them were used to over-drive a signal. When we did drive something...it sounded horrible. I just can't buy into these things....that goes for the Waves NLS too. Just more hype that really doesn't make a difference to where someone should use these things all over the place in my opinion. Good saturators though, I'll give them that.
 
What are your thoughts hearing my comments in that regard?
 
-Danny

+ 1 on everything danny especially this part "It's like the guy that ran analyzers on these when they first came out. What good does that do any of us if what the analyzer reports isn't actually heard on a track?"


and " I can simulate them with eq as far as the slight top end coloration they add." 

and "all I hear no matter what I try is a bit of top end with drive that I don't necessarily want."


I really have not used the CE function very much. I am still trying to figure out a personal need for it. although I must say they do look cool in the prochannel strip.

+ 1 on everything danny especially this part "It's like the guy that ran analyzers on these when they first came out. What good does that do any of us if what the analyzer reports isn't actually heard on a track?" and " I can simulate them with eq as far as the slight top end coloration they add." and "all I hear no matter what I try is a bit of top end with drive that I don't necessarily want." I really have not used the CE function very much. I am still trying to figure out a personal need for it. although I must say they do look cool in the prochannel strip.

 
It's definitely something you'll need to try for yourself, Marcus. But for the life of me...I just can't see a need for this other than for special effects purposes from time to time or for a little drive on a modern bass guitar tone or something. They sure do look cool. The Waves versions are even cooler and you have control over all of them in one instance. But again...is a console supposed to give us drive in order to hear a top end coloration?
 
This is my problem with these things and the hype that surrounds them. I don't feel that any of us should ever have to use an analyzer or a test tone to see the results of plugs like these. I just can't understand where that would be helpful. You either hear a drastic difference that works for you or you don't, ya know?
 
The dude I mentioned that did the early analyzing when these first came out.....I read what he said and did it myself. I saw what the scope was telling me but I didn't hear a lick of it. I saw some low mids being pushed but I couldn't hear them in my recordings. I get the same thing all the time...drive and top end sparkle. Did you ever run through a console and drive it to the point of saturation? When I have, I had a reel to reel tape that colored the sound with warmth and a slight compression...not top end sizzle.
 
So here's the psychology of it for me. Add one of these to your track. It adds some drive and top end. You might not need the top end, so eq it out a bit. Your left with the same sound you actually recorded only now it has drive to it. Do you need the drive it adds? I sure don't. Or someone will run a tape sim plug....all that does is? Right...removes the top end you just added with the CE. LOL! It just makes no sense to me. We are easily sold by plugs that increase top end sparkle or increase volume to some degree.
 
The best bet for anyone trying these is to clone the track of your original and then add the CE to the cloned track, make sure your volumes are perfect so there is no boost and then compare and make up your mind if that little bit of "whatever you wanna call it" that it adds, is worth it to you. Then try and see if you can use your eq on your original track to achieve that same sparkle minus the drive. Some things, the drive is a good thing...others...ugggh!
 
-Danny

It's definitely something you'll need to try for yourself, Marcus. But for the life of me...I just can't see a need for this other than for special effects purposes from time to time or for a little drive on a modern bass guitar tone or something. They sure do look cool. The Waves versions are even cooler and you have control over all of them in one instance. But again...is a console supposed to give us drive in order to hear a top end coloration?
 
This is my problem with these things and the hype that surrounds them. I don't feel that any of us should ever have to use an analyzer or a test tone to see the results of plugs like these. I just can't understand where that would be helpful. You either hear a drastic difference that works for you or you don't, ya know?  

Agreed Danny! I tried the Console Emulators on a few projects. I really did not like the results and I cranked up the drive a little. I am trying to keep an open mind. I think that maybe there is something I am missing here. I have had the same experience with Reel to Reel and I also got no top end. instead I got a slight warmth and compression. Maybe that is what the developers are shooting for.


I hear the difference in my projects when I increase the drive, but i don't hear it in the youtube video. In the past I have uploaded Youtube videos and some of the original sound was lost in youtube's conversion process. I really have not heard anything from the CE that would make me buy additional plug-ins