Not that I've done any real work with the CEs, but it's been stated before that adding a CE to *a* track isn't the intended design and probably won't do much.  Instead, you have to add it all tracks and busses while the project is coming together so that you "mix into it"; i.e.g, make your mix decisions based on the presence of the CEs from the start.  Then when you're far enough along, quick-group all of the tracks and disable/enable to hear the effect.
 
It seems that at least a few folks that did this liked the end result.   I'm definitely curious to try it myself, but unfortunately I don't have any projects in a state where it would have any effect.
 

stevec


Not that I've done any real work with the CEs, but it's been stated before that adding a CE to *a* track isn't the intended design and probably won't do much.  Instead, you have to add it all tracks and busses while the project is coming together so that you "mix into it"; i.e.g, make your mix decisions based on the presence of the CEs from the start.  Then when you're far enough along, quick-group all of the tracks and disable/enable to hear the effect.
 
It seems that at least a few folks that did this liked the end result.   I'm definitely curious to try it myself, but unfortunately I don't have any projects in a state where it would have any effect.
 

That's exactly what I did Steve. But mixing into them doesn't really do anything. For me, a console emulator should alter the sound just by being on. I shouldn't have to raise a gain stage to hear the difference it makes and it shouldn't add top end and drive to my sounds. It's like....what are you really mixing into? When we record an instrument through a console, the circuitry of that console is going to alter or color the sound based on what console you use, right?
 
If we recorded an instrument using a Behringer Eurodesk and then used an SSL....the signals would sound different just because of the coloration differences between those consoles. I highly doubt that we'd run the gains up high enough on either of them to get drive....you know what that would sound like. :)
 
These CE's don't behave like that. Whether you mix into them on all tracks and busses or not....turning them off and on does nothing to the sound unless you hit the gain/trim knobs. My point is...to me they are not emulating consoles at all...they are giving you more of a pre-amp drive with top end sparkle. Most of the time when we drive a pre-amp, we get a little saturations and warmth. We don't gain top end and sizzle drive. That's all I hear from these whether I mix into them or just create a track and add one on.
 
What I notice is...an entire mix will be a little brighter in certain instances or certain instruments will have a slightly driven sound. So, if I notice this brightness and it happens to be a bit too bright, I take a little top end off of the instruments that I find are a little sparkly. In turn, upon disabling the CE's....it leaves me with the same sounds I recorded because I just took away one of the two things they do...so I'm left with driven instruments that may not necessarily need this addtional drive, understand?
 
I'm not one that is won over by gain boosts and treble boosts. That's all they do to my ears when I compare them with tracks that are un-affected by them. To each their own though....if something works and a person is happy with the outcome, they are right where they need to be. :)
 
-Danny 

Nah, I hear ya.  I guess CEs in general just aren't for everyone, or everyone would already be using them!  
 
I still am curious to try them on a "real" project at some point just for my own clarification.  Or saturation + presence, as it were.  
 

stevec


Nah, I hear ya.  I guess CEs in general just aren't for everyone, or everyone would already be using them!  
 
I still am curious to try them on a "real" project at some point just for my own clarification.  Or saturation + presence, as it were.  
 

You'll definitely like the saturation and presence IF you feel your mix needs that stuff. Like I say, of all the plugs I've ever used that do the saturation thing Steve, these are definitely the best hands down. If you mix a little warm...the additional top end they give you is sort of like "gloss" on the PC eq in my opinion. The drive thing...well, you know how that goes...that's pretty much genre specific. :) I like 'em as plug effects more than CE's...but that's just me. :) You'll see what I mean when you mess with them even if you happen to not totally agree with me after you've experienced them yourself. :) It's all subjective anyway at the end of the day.
 
-Danny

I also agree with everything Danny has said too. I have always taken a Hi Fi approach to things and that is to keep the signal path as direct as you can and try to avoid putting things on tracks and buses if you can. People are in far too much of a hurry to bung some effect in the signal chain without really considering how it is actually effecting the sound of your signal. I ask myself do I really want or need that effect there. Is there a better way to achieve the end result. Have you ever considered that while you may gain something from using an effect you may also be loosing something as well.

I have produced music on some very nice consoles in my time too and distortion or overdrive is NOT one of the things that they exhibited. In fact it was the opposite. Clean sound with tons of headroom. Sure channels introduce their sound for sure and it is interesting also what Rasure said too. As soon as a signal hits a console channel strip the sound is introduced right there at the Mic pre but also half way down too with the EQ if it is switched in and on the mix buss too. I don't see distortion happening anywhere along these paths. There is confusion as to where the CE's are meant to be placed. Anything that causes confusion is not good IMO.

I say Anderton I could match your final mix with all your CE's on easily without using any CE's at all by simply being careful with the source recording and applying gentle EQ from a quality equaliser here and there. It could be argued that the CE's are just another way of making people think they are getting something great as part of their software and it could all be a marketing ploy to get more people to buy that software.

A quality tape simulator on the other hand might be a different story as evidenced in the review in SOS on the Slate tape sim. He said after a lot of testing he really liked the sound a lot and felt his mixes would benefit from using them and as someone who owns some really nice tape machines I could agree with that knowing how good they sound when you use them. No problem with hearing what they do either. They do work and you can hear definite changes when they are engaged. But some things also don't benefit by using them and in fact may get worse.

We need to stop obsessing with the sound of analog and get on with the sound of digital. It is way superior and I totally agree with Danny that you can get a total analog sound with digital if you can hear it in your head first and know how to get there. But digital can also create a sound that analog cannot so why not use it and work with it too. It is absurd that we have a superior medium now and yet we are determined to keep on making it sound inferior like we have to go backwards. We need to move forward not backward. Why would you want noise or crosstalk? Who needs it? 

Danny Danzi

The above is the problem I have with science and why it will never make sense to me. Not picking on you Craig...I think the world of you as a teacher and an engineer...but I have to question why on earth you'd judge any of this by using a sine wave? We don't make music with sine waves...so why would it hold any credibility at all? If we create a guitar track or a bass guitar track and we can barely hear the effects of these CE's, isn't that enough proof that they really aren't anything to brag about other than maybe they got the saturated drive part down? What are your thoughts hearing my comments in that regard?
 
-Danny

The point was not using sine waves to judge the efficacy of the plug-ins, but as I said, as a way to "get a handle" on what they do. I'd already judged the plug-ins and found them useful for enhancing tracks, but I wanted to know why. The more you understand what something does and how it works, the better you can apply it.
 
For example, the character of the 100Hz sine wave sounded VERY much like what you would hear running a sine wave through a transformer, whereas at the top end, it was more obvious that the non-linearities were manifesting themselves as high-frequency components. Neither of those are inherently "good" or "bad," they just "are." So someone who had not tried the CEs due to negative commments might read what I said and decide to try it on bass with a fair amount of Drive to bring up that "transformer sound," but also know to pull back the highs a bit if they don't want the non-linear sparkle.
 
I also compared how a sine wave was affected by the various CEs by looking at the waveforms in WaveLab. The first thing I noticed right away was that these affect the positive-going wave only - asymmetrical distortion. That's quite different from traditional saturation, and because I know how asymmetrical distortion sounds compared to symmetrical distortion due to all the design work I've done with distortion devices, this makes it easier to know which processor to choose when I want a specific sound.
 
So the bottom line is I could play with the CEs for hours, listen carefully to how they affect program material and individual instruments, and eventually, figure out what they do so I could have some guidelines on how to apply them. Or, I could run a few tests and get the "what they do" part over with as fast as possible so I could experiment with applying them. Now, knowing what they do doesn't dictate how I'll use them, but they provide suggestions that save time. As just one example, on a song where I applied the N-type CEs to all the tracks, the percussion didn't sound quite right. I instantly knew to try the S-type CE to give a more rounded sound, and tried it bypassed and enabled. I ended up keeping the S-type, but if my only choice had been between N-type enabled or bypassed, I would have bypassed it.
 

Jeff Evans


I say Anderton I could match your final mix with all your CE's on easily without using any CE's at all by simply being careful with the source recording and applying gentle EQ from a quality equaliser here and there.   

I highly doubt that. Because I did in fact run some tests, I found out that the CEs actually contribute a combination of frequency-dependent saturation and waveshaping. The character of the waveshaping itself is different at different frequencies, with a more asymmetrical quality at lower frequencies and a more rounded flattening at the top with some of the emulations, but not with others.
 
Sure, you could set up a multiband compressor as a crossover, add subtle amounts of EQ in different bands, and choose multiple, different saturator circuits adjusted for very fine gradations and spend a few hours tweaking, and maybe you could come close. Maybe. Or, you can investigate what the CEs do, and choose the right tool for the right job.
 
While I am quite minimalist in terms of adding plug-ins, that's because too many of them impact the purity of the overall sound. The CEs are right up my alley, because their impact is "minimally invasive."
 
Also, it is simply not true that analog consoles don't exhibit distortion. It is unavoidable with analog circuits; you will find no spec sheet for any operational amp, whether monolithic or discrete, with a distortion spec of 0.000%. The same goes for any output stage other than class A. The amounts of distortion are very small, but cumulative over multiple stages of preamps, summing buses, onboard EQ, output stages, etc.
 
Some designers believe that the "clarity," wider soundstage, and definition associated with analog consoles are actually byproducts of these minute analog non-linearities, and manifest that belief with plug-ins that reproduce these admittedly subtle non-linearities. As just one examples, added high-frequency content gives a "wider soundstage" because of the directional nature of high frequencies.
 
There is also absolutely no doubt that the transformers used in many consoles contributed distortion. That's what transformers do, particularly at low frequencies, and the distortion is primarily odd-order. There are also interwinding capacitance issues that affect highs, and of course, the transformers don't exist in isolation and their characteristics are influenced by input and output loading. Some have called transformers "the most complex signal processors ever to be added to the audio signal chain," and I'd have a hard time arguing with that.
 
Analog consoles process the sound. Whether someone finds that sound desirable or not, and whether or not they want to emulate it, is a personal decision. I like having the option availiable, and I use it as appropriate.

I am fully aware of the distortions that an analog console introduces. I was referring more to the fact that people are saying they have to drive the CE effect hard and almost get it into saturation before it becomes effective. The sort of consoles I was referring to were things like Neve and SSL etc where one is usually well below any such saturation levels in channels and buses etc..

Who says analog signal paths are perfect and that is what we should be striving for. I say we have been working and listening to an inferior environment for years and now we think that is our reference and when something better comes we now have a whole generation of people who don't know what to do with it.

OK the transformer does introduce all sorts of things into the sound (and you will not have any arguments from me on that!) but I say why not avoid them all together and just work in an all digital domain. Then you don't have to worry about any such non linearities at all ever. I can easily argue that a total non transformerless sound is better than a transformer sound.

Digital is much closer to the piece of wire with gain. Something that many Hi Fi enthusiasts have been striving for years. I have got the finest turntable and RIAA equaliser that you can get and the finest analog recordings and yes I know how good analog can sound at its peak. But a fantastic modern Jazz recording (DDD) without any such interference from analog simulation devices absolutely creams it though. No comparison. It sounds better to my ears.

I have come from a completely analog background and now I am working in an all digital one and to be honest I prefer the sound. It is more transparent, open, transient and noiseless! The more time I spend working in digital the more I like it. And yes you can produce very warm sounding and analog sounding recordings if you want to. (totally agree with Danny on that one) I have done it time and time again except you do not need any console emulators to do it. There are many other ways.

But I do like the way that we can now take an all digital mix and pass just part of it through some sort of analog processing as opposed to doing an all analog mix on an analog console where you are actually stuck with the sound of that console on every track. That may not get you the best result but now because we can put some parts of our mix through analog processes to my mind that is better just in itself. But it also can be said it is silly to apply CE on every track and every buss as well because then you are not hearing the clarity that digital brings anywhere.  

The place where we really need to emulate analog things in all their glory is getting VST synth instruments to sound as good as their earlier analog counterparts and thank god we are doing it and doing it well. I just love them now.    

Nice tune Craig!

For those panning the idea of analyzing with sine waves I have to go back to basic theory of sound. Theoretically ANY sound could be recreated with the right combination of Sine waves. Whether or not the complex relationships for a particular piece of music can be captured/recreated this way with current technology, the mathematical/theoretical fact remains.
Thus, if there are fundamental changes to the sine wave signal itself, you can darn well bet there will be an impact on more complex material, however subtle it might be.

Personally I've found I like different CE modules for different types of material. 

• For things where I want a subtle affect I use the S model
• For things that I want a little fatter/warmer I use the A model
• For things that I want a little brighter/airier I use the N model

Of course, there are also times where I just turn it off because I want the sound to be pristine. It's all a matter of taste.

Those who are used to the sound of digital recording, amp sims, drum plugins, etc, and those who are used to pristine recording where coloration is not desirable, these CE modules probably have little function. 

Some who have heard real consoles and analog tape may not like them either, but again, I think it's a matter of taste. 

All I know is that if I start a mix with the CE modules on and the N, A, or S module chosen for each track according to my general preferences I find I already like the sound better, and mixing becomes easier. I tend to add a lot of UAD plugins to tracks for warmth, coloration, and particular sounds, and I now add less of them. Since I only have a UAD-2 Duo using less UAD (and bouncing/freezing) helps a lot.

Peace,

Tunes

Jeff Evans
<<I am fully aware of the distortions that an analog console introduces. I was referring more to the fact that people are saying they have to drive the CE effect hard and almost get it into saturation before it becomes effective.>>

I don't agree with them. I drive the CEs at around 2 o'clock max when I want an aggressive sound with rock, less with other material. Anything more sounds excessive to me.

<<The sort of consoles I was referring to were things like Neve and SSL etc where one is usually well below any such saturation levels in channels and buses etc.>>

Regardless of what level you chose, there was unavoidable residual distortion and I believe the aim of plug-ins like the CE is to emulate that.

<<Who says analog signal paths are perfect and that is what we should be striving for.>>

Well, obviously not me. But I do recognize that analog has a particular character that some people like, like slamming tape with drums. If that's what they strive to replicate with digital recordings, then that's what they should do.

<<OK the transformer does introduce all sorts of things into the sound (and you will not have any arguments from me on that!) but I say why not avoid them all together and just work in an all digital domain.>>

But that's the point of plug-ins like the CE. I would rather not record harpsichord through a transformer, and now I don't have to. However, when choosing a DI for bass, I'll usually use one with a transformer over one without simply because the transformer adds a pleasing quality to the bass. If I can do that predictably in the digital domain, so much the better.

<<I can easily argue that a total non transformerless sound is better than a transformer sound. >>

More accurate, yes. But that doesn't always mean it's subjectively better. I don't think anyone has heard an “accurate” electric guitar sound in the past 75 years

<<Digital is much closer to the piece of wire with gain...etc. etc.>>

This is not an analog vs. digital question; anyone using Sonar instead of a multitrack analog recorder has already made their preference clear. But you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just because tape hiss sucks doesn't mean transformers can't add some great mojo to a bass part, or that subtle distortion products can't enhance a piece of music. The beauty of digital IS its neutrality; you can do anything from nails-on-chalkboard lo-fi industrial to classical guitar recordings so warm you can heat a small room.

<<I have done [analog-sounding recordings] time and time again except you do not need any console emulators to do it. There are many other ways.>>

If there are many ways to do something, I tend to choose the best-sounding, most effective, simplest option. If a CE, when applied appropriately, gives an extra 5% sonic improvement to a track—or even a 1% improvement—I see no reason to reject using it for conceptual or philosophical reasons, or spend time trying to figure out a way to produce the same result in a more complex or time-consuming manner.

When I first tried the CE, I thought it was superfluous at best and "the emperor has no clothes" at worst. But that was before I learned how to use it. Whenever I determine to my satisfaction that something can contribute to a better listener experience, it becomes part of my toolbox, and used (or abused!) when appropriate.