I could not hear a difference listening on iPod with Bose QuietComforts. 

jb101

BluffinMad


Hi there, I may not have been clear I apologise, what I meant was have them on whilst mixing but not enabled, then A/B them from time to time, it was a technique introduced on the last live stream Cakewalk did, and they are right. It just means if you mix without them enabled and then turn them on for an A/B you will notice more so than if you were mixing with them on from the start. And by latency issues I was really meaning when recording. Sorry for the confusion :) Cheers  

jb101

BluffinMad


Cheers for the A/B comparison, great job on the song by the way, sounds great! The effect is subtle I have found when using it myself, so trying to hear the effect on youtube after the video has been compressed makes it even more subtle, but I recommend people use it, like you say mix with them on but turned off because they do effect latency then A/B them every now and then. Again, great job man!  

@ bluffinmad  - Not sure I understand "Mix with them on, but turned off."  Could you explain?

I think the idea is that you mix through them rather than put them on after mixing.  I think this is what Craig is suggesting.  Perhaps he could clarify.  Not sure how latency will affect mixing, either. 

Please explain.
 
 
I had a quick look at the Webinar.  Brandon and Seth tell you to mix through the Console Emulation (i.e. Have them turned on).  What they do say is that if you quick group and turn it off and on then you will really notice the difference when you turn it back on.
 
It is, as Crag says in this thread, to mix with the Console Emulator on, not mix and then turn it on.  You need to hear the effect of the Console Emulation to mix to it.  Watch it again.
 
You are the same chap who has authored the new XI Mix Video, aren't you?..

Yes thats right I am, the 'X2 Mix Clinic', my memory of the webinar must be slightly blurry, I stand corrected. On hindsight however,  I still think the other method would work just as well, to mix with the CE on every channel and bus, but not have them enabled, then enable them every now and again for an A/B comparison, there really isn't much difference between the two methods. I also don't think you necessarily need to hear the CE in order to mix to it, as you suggest. The difference is so subtle that the CE could quite easily be added afterwards. The best way really IMO is to have it in the background, be it enabled through your mix or not is irrelevant, but mix as you would normally and really forget that its there, then A/B after you have made substantial changes. These two 'methods' that we are talking about really is about personal preference, I didnt want to put the impression that this is or isn't what Graig or anyone else was suggesting, its merely my input. 


Cheers

There is an easy way to determine whether or not the Console is making a sonic difference: export two brief mixes, one with the CE on, the other with it off. Make that the only variable.

Invert the phase of one mix and play both synched up. Any difference between the two mixes will be revealed through phase cancellation. (Note: this will work best with recorded audio, not softsymths, which can apparently vary in their latency during export??).

I have tried this approach several times. The Console plugs do indeed make a difference, however it is still unclear to me how to use them most effectively.

My experiments continue.

Also - I forget to mention that the CE plugs appear to absorb/filter some of the mid-range out, while adding a touch of low end and a bit of high sparkle.

Very subtle - but definitely there.

My favorite is the "N" console.

FWIW, I have experimented most of the day with the CE. I am finding that the audio tracks have got to be recorded at a higher level than I usually do in order for the CE to really respond as it should. I usually try to keep things around -12 while tracking in X64. When I did that the CE was null and void. No difference to speak of. Almost inaudible. When I tracked around -6 the CE started coming alive! It seems the tracks have to be within a certain level range for the CE to really shine. Is there any one else that has noticed this gain staging to get the CE to work properly? It would be interesting to know if someone else is noticing the difference in their gain staging. I am also wondering is it going to be better to record at my usual -12 range and use compression to raise the level or just start recording around the -6 level without using the compressor? I'm still experimenting around with the CE and it does seem to be very ticky about how hot the input is coming in to it before it reacts.

Yes - the CE plugs work "more" when their needle is pushed; so having a hotter track will yield more console treatment.

I posted this in another thread, but thought I'd repeat it here.
 
I've found if I put them last in the ProChannel on all tracks, and the buss versions on busses, and have them switched on from the beginning works best.

I then play around with the trim and drive knobs. I do carefully gain stage to make sure none of the modules are too hot and clip. It's handy to insert an empty PC FX Chain Module in between to do this, e.g. after the Quad EQ if it boosts the signal.

If I want to hear the difference I quick group ALL the Console Emus and turn them off together. Then I hear a big difference. Turning them on and off individually doesn't. Subtle, I guess, but definitely noticeable.

The effect of them is cumulative, as Seth pointed out. It's when you hear them all on, and then all off that you notice it.

I have done this with several clients and students, and they all agree the Console Emus sound better. How they describe the change varies, but that's human nature. It's also interesting to quick group and try the S, N & A modules to compare them. I admit the SSL one is the most subtle. But I believe that is true of the SSL desks in reality, they colour the sound less than a Neve or Trident desk.

Just my penny's worth..

The Sonar documentation recommends making the CE plug the FIRST in the ProChannel chain; they don't explain why.

And yes - the effect is cumulative - so it is best to start with the plugs on, and then mix, rather than adding them as a last step.

Sidroe


... I am also wondering is it going to be better to record at my usual -12 range and use compression to raise the level or just start recording around the -6 level without using the compressor?

I might suggest just using the track gain control in sonar to elevate the level of each track so the max level is closer to 0 db rather than using compression into the CE. I don't have X2 yet but that's how I would try to "push" the console a bit harder. 

Also it was playing through my computer speakers. They are not average but quite good for what they are. None the less, I did not run it through my monitors. So I figured that it was due to the setup and the fact that it was streaming audio going through a Realtec audio chip. I am not saying it didn't do anything just I couldn't hear a difference.

 
In all fairness, Craig did mention that listening thru studio monitors is the best way to hear the difference.   I haven't listened myself, but have found this thread very interesting...   (and at time entertaining)
 
Now, if only I could remember to turn those dang CEs on when starting a project, or maybe creating a template with them turned on...