Let's say I have a bright sounding synth track that's soloed. The pro-channel EQ has a high pass filter set to about 6000Hz with a slope of 48dB (for experimental purposes), so basically I would be expecting there to be absolutely nothing going on in the low frequencies, which there isn't. Now let's add console emulation to the track. Immediately, I see from a frequency analyzer that frequencies are being added in the low end, all the way down to 10Hz, with the N-Type emulation adding the most. The S-Type adds the least, concentrated at 50Hz and below. Both the N-Type and the A-Type are adding a lot of low-mid and mid range frequencies as well. 

Now I don't know a lot about mixing, but it seems to me that the general advice given is to use a HPF on mid range instruments, in order to cut out any unnecessary low end frequencies that are going to serve no purpose but to add mud to the mix. Are we not just mixing that mud back in with console emulation?  


EDIT: I forgot to add (which was a major part of my point) that I am talking about a setup with the console emulation at the END of the chain in the ProChannel. Obviously if you put it BEFORE the EQ, those extra low end console emulation frequencies are going to be removed by your HPF. This, it seems, is relevant to the ongoing debate of where to put the console emulator in the chain, with it being wise to put it before the EQ if you're worried about adding mud to your mix. Hmmm. 

Now I don't know a lot about mixing, but it seems to me that the general advice given is to use a HPF on mid range instruments, in order to cut out any unnecessary low end frequencies that are going to serve no purpose but to add mud to the mix.

Well yes and no. It just depends on a track by track basis. Yea, its goo practice to get rid off all unwanted frequencies, but you have to be very careful and not cut too much out or the song will sound hollow.
 
To Add: Sometimes, when needed, ill do a MId/Side Eqing on the Master Bus and ill cut the Low-end off the sides a bit as the bass should be predominantly in the center channel. This makes for a clearer sound and also enables you to raise the volume a bit more
 

Are we not just mixing that mud back in with console emulation

No, its different.

CJaysMusic

 
To Add: Sometimes, when needed, ill do a MId/Side Eqing on the Master Bus and ill cut the Low-end off the sides a bit as the bass should be predominantly in the center channel. This makes for a clearer sound and also enables you to raise the volume a bit more 

Isn't this kind of similar to what the TP Basslane plugin does? 

sharke: I haven't really heard any "mud" from the console emulators, but what I DO notice is....I have to really pump up the gain to hear them making a difference. If there is enough gain present, this can definitely turn into "mud" due to their being more drive going. However, in my experience with these CE's they seem to add a little brightness/sparkle into the sound. The problem is, I have to jump on the gain knob quite a bit to hear these make a difference at all...and, there are times when I don't want extra gain in my sound. So for me, I stay away from these as they have done more harm than good for my particular use.

As for what my graphs may be telling me about what these CE's are doing, I don't pay attention to them because I simply do not hear what they are representing. I hear drive and I hear a little top end presence. I've not experienced any low end mud...then again, if you are using a sound that has low end in it and you add too much gain, this can turn into a form of mud.

-Danny

To be honest I've not noticed any mud from them either, mind you the tracks I've been working on have been pretty sparse and not that prone to mud anyway. I just thought that if someone was working on a dense mix where mud or low end clarity might be an issue, the fact that the CE adds low end frequencies might be something to consider. They definitely seem to add a significant amount, going by a frequency analyzer. 

the fact that the CE adds low end frequencies might be something to consider. They definitely seem to add a significant amount, going by a frequency analyzer.

 
Like I say, it may be adding it according to your analyzer, but I sure can't hear what it's showing me at all. I'm hearing brightness and additional gain with every module. Not a single one of those CE's has added low end to any of my instruments enough for me to notice when I toggle it off and on. I don't believe in analyzers for plugs like these. If *I* can't hear a drastic difference, it simply doesn't exist to me. My ears tell me "I hear drive and the track got a little brighter". Analyzer shows me something completely different that I can't hear a lick of...and I got a pretty good set of ears. :)
 
-Danny

Isn't this kind of similar to what the TP Bassline plugin does?

I never heard  of this plugin nd i have never used it. If you have it, then you should know if it does Mid/Side EYing or not. I'm not familiar with that
plugin. Sorry. But there are hundreds of Mid/Side Eqs, so take your pick and use the one you like 
 
I like to add to what Mr  Danny Danzi said (one day ill have hair like him! One day!!!). don't put much stock into analyzers. Mix with your ears, not with your eyes and allot of analyzers are not 100% accurate. There are things that show up and are not audible in analyzers. If you make a -1dB cut with a q of 1.5 at 330Hz, you wont see any difference in the analyzer with and without the cut.
 
Cj
 

CJaysMusic

Isn't this kind of similar to what the TP Bassline plugin does?

I never heard  of this plugin nd i have never used it. If you have it, then you should know if it does Mid/Side EYing or not. I'm not familiar with that
plugin. Sorry. But there are hundreds of Mid/Side Eqs, so take your pick and use the one you like 
 
I like to add to what Mr  Danny Danzi said (one day ill have hair like him! One day!!!). don't put much stock into analyzers. Mix with your ears, not with your eyes and allot of analyzers are not 100% accurate. There are things that show up and are not audible in analyzers. If you make a -1dB cut with a q of 1.5 at 330Hz, you wont see any difference in the analyzer with and without the cut.
 
Cj
 

+1000! Well said Mr. Jacobson! :) Nooo, keep the clean look...it will always take you less time to get ready to go out than it will me...and...you'll never have dudes whistlin' at ya thinkin' you're a chick! Hahahaha! :) Good to see you posting more often again. New studio looks awesome...best of luck with everything! If my place blows away in this storm and I'm down without power for a week or two, I may have to send some work your way. I'll be in touch if it comes to that. :)
 
Yeah I meant to comment on the analyzer thing a bit more in depth, but you nailed it. I've noticed even when they show me activity, it's not activity that I can actually hear in my tracks that make a difference for the better or for the worse. I tend not to ever rely on analyzers other than when I know I'm hearing something that I can't pinpoint. :)
 
-Danny

I posted earlier on another thread a quote from Thomas Serafini, DSP Developer - Overloud, about the Console Emulations.
 
He said - "The Console Emulator module emulates the summing circuitry of the mix bus. Its natural position is at the end of the chain (last module in the channel) because in a real console the summing happens after all the channel processing. The Trim control is not related to the "Input Trim" control of a real mixer; it is something which controls the amount of these "summing effects". The Console Emulator module is not a channel strip plugin; it only simulates the mix bus summing effects. It also has a Drive control in case you do not have any preamp simulation modules and you want to boost the channel gain and increase the amount of nonlinear processing. This is more like to the "Input Gain" control on the preamp of a real mixer."
 
What are your thoughts on that, in relation to what you're hearing?
 
@Danny Danzi - Good luck with the weather over there, look forward to hearing that it all went okay..

jb101


I posted earlier on another thread a quote from Thomas Serafini, DSP Developer - Overloud, about the Console Emulations.
 
He said - "The Console Emulator module emulates the summing circuitry of the mix bus. Its natural position is at the end of the chain (last module in the channel) because in a real console the summing happens after all the channel processing. The Trim control is not related to the "Input Trim" control of a real mixer; it is something which controls the amount of these "summing effects". The Console Emulator module is not a channel strip plugin; it only simulates the mix bus summing effects. It also has a Drive control in case you do not have any preamp simulation modules and you want to boost the channel gain and increase the amount of nonlinear processing. This is more like to the "Input Gain" control on the preamp of a real mixer."
 
What are your thoughts on that, in relation to what you're hearing?
 
@Danny Danzi - Good luck with the weather over there, look forward to hearing that it all went okay..

I'll give you my thoughts jb based on my own experience. If the CE is supposed to emulate the sound of a summed mixer, to me this would mean it should alter the sound of something WITHOUT altering the drive knob. I do not hear a single difference in any of these in a colorization sort of way without using the drive knob.
 
When I went to school for engineering, we worked on several consoles. The 3 main ones were NEVE, SSL and Soundcraft. Just plugging something into these consoles without doing a thing, gave us interesting results that gave us sound coloration. Part of our learning as well as the testing procedure was to compare how a signal would sound being sent into the different console circuitry's.
 
Meaning, you record a voice or a guitar using the same mic, or DI etc without messing with any major board settings. No eq, no driving the board pre's other than to achieve the right recording level. These situations did NOT leave us with gain in our sounds. These CE's in my opinion produce absolutely nothing different until you jump on a drive knob and the bus CE is even less apparent.
 
My point is, if these are truly emulating, the user should hear a distinct difference just by passing signal through them. Rest assured, if you crank the trim on any of those consoles I mentioned to the extent in which we have to crank these to hear a difference, you are greeted with the sound of bad. Ok, so the guy you mentioned claimed it's not a trim knob and is more a pre type drive. I can buy that. However, why do we have to use at least 50% of that drive to hear an obvious difference the CE is making?
 
I'd have to tell any developer that asked me in a nice way "with all due respect Sir, I do not agree and can't buy into the hype. Unfortunately, though your DSP badge of creation and schooling are highly respected and I envy you, my ears do not hear what you are attempting to sell.....and I'll put my ears up against anyone that is considered credible in this field."
 
I will not accept that I am too deaf, dumb or clueless on what to listen for to notice the difference these plugs and other plugs of this nature give us. They do absolutely nothing when inserted on tracks and busses without touching the drive knob. That goes for the Waves NLS series too. Console emulation is not about driving a signal to the point of soft clipping though I'm sure this has been used before on real consoles for effect purposes. 
 
The circuitry of a console is what gives you that console's coloration....it is NOT determined by the amount of drive you push through it and you should not end up with drive on your sound to emulate that console. Have you ever heard of anyone driving a console? Most of that is done using outboard pre's that are made to drive and color the right way. I've never heard of anyone driving an SSL or NEVE console and bragging about how it was "the sound that made the record" have you? LOL! We hear about compressors and special tube pre's and other things...but driving a console other than to get the proper signal level?
 
What if I don't want drive on my signal? Right...then if you toggle the CE off and on, you hear 0 difference. Try this sometime. Export 3 sounds out of your DAW. 2 with console emulation off and one with it on without using the drive. The two off are there to throw you a curve. Then burn them to CD and allow them to play in a random order or let someone else que these up so you can't see what they are and write down which you think has the emulation on it.
 
Do this 3 times and see how well you can pick out the CE. If anyone can pick the right one 3 times, you are truly gifted and blessed by God. What you think you hear when you know what you're listening to can be a completely different animal once your brain knows what you're listening to by looking at a title or an "on off" switch. When you don't know for sure, it totally changes the experience.
 
For me, again...all I hear is drive and a bit of top end. The one GOOD thing I will say is, both the Sonar CE's and the Waves NLS plugs have done something right that I've not heard from any other plugs that have a "drive knob". These drive knobs literally saturate in a good way. They don't give you that digital clipping sound you get like some of these other plugs that claim "saturation" or "tube type tape drive" etc. These do a really nice job softly driving the signals when used correctly and this part impressed me most of all. But as a console emulator? Not even close considering I've had the chance to work with several during my years as an engineer.
 
It's like this...I feel I can cop any sound these consoles give us using an eq and I wouldn't have the drive getting in my way. If anything, I would call them "pre-amp emulations" because they work more like pushed pre's than console emu's to my ears.
 
Sorry you asked for my thoughts now? LOL!! :) I've done quite a bit of extensive testing with this stuff. Of course none of it means anything to anyone but me, but these are my thoughts and findings.
 
Thanks for the good luck wishes...I can't wait for the day this storm is over, my power is back and it's a thing of the past. The waiting part is getting to me and doing my head in. I'm ready to get on with it. If its my time, so be it...but waiting....uggh. Winds are kicking up now..totally dreading this...I should have bailed and flew to a friends house. :( Then I'd just worry about my house...best I go down with the ship if need be. Hopefully speak soon.
 
-Danny