jb101


I posted earlier on another thread a quote from Thomas Serafini, DSP Developer - Overloud, about the Console Emulations.
 
He said - "The Console Emulator module emulates the summing circuitry of the mix bus. Its natural position is at the end of the chain (last module in the channel) because in a real console the summing happens after all the channel processing. The Trim control is not related to the "Input Trim" control of a real mixer; it is something which controls the amount of these "summing effects". The Console Emulator module is not a channel strip plugin; it only simulates the mix bus summing effects. It also has a Drive control in case you do not have any preamp simulation modules and you want to boost the channel gain and increase the amount of nonlinear processing. This is more like to the "Input Gain" control on the preamp of a real mixer." 
 

This is exactly what I said about CE in another thread, but I left it as a question because I know nothing about it, really. It just made sense when thinking about it.
 
On the other hand I find what Danny says to be true also. I hear little to no difference, though I'm loosing the upper feqs in my ear, or else it totally wacks everything up.
 
Am I also to conclude by this that the makers of our CE are saying something different than what Cakewalk is telling us for the same unit? No wonder most of us are still confused by this little device. So until I can learn how to use it, I probably won't. 
 
 
Steve

Danny Danzi

jb101


I posted earlier on another thread a quote from Thomas Serafini, DSP Developer - Overloud, about the Console Emulations.
 
He said - "The Console Emulator module emulates the summing circuitry of the mix bus. Its natural position is at the end of the chain (last module in the channel) because in a real console the summing happens after all the channel processing. The Trim control is not related to the "Input Trim" control of a real mixer; it is something which controls the amount of these "summing effects". The Console Emulator module is not a channel strip plugin; it only simulates the mix bus summing effects. It also has a Drive control in case you do not have any preamp simulation modules and you want to boost the channel gain and increase the amount of nonlinear processing. This is more like to the "Input Gain" control on the preamp of a real mixer."
 
What are your thoughts on that, in relation to what you're hearing?
 
@Danny Danzi - Good luck with the weather over there, look forward to hearing that it all went okay..

I'll give you my thoughts jb based on my own experience. If the CE is supposed to emulate the sound of a summed mixer, to me this would mean it should alter the sound of something WITHOUT altering the drive knob. I do not hear a single difference in any of these in a colorization sort of way without using the drive knob.
 
When I went to school for engineering, we worked on several consoles. The 3 main ones were NEVE, SSL and Soundcraft. Just plugging something into these consoles without doing a thing, gave us interesting results that gave us sound coloration. Part of our learning as well as the testing procedure was to compare how a signal would sound being sent into the different console circuitry's.
 
Meaning, you record a voice or a guitar using the same mic, or DI etc without messing with any major board settings. No eq, no driving the board pre's other than to achieve the right recording level. These situations did NOT leave us with gain in our sounds. These CE's in my opinion produce absolutely nothing different until you jump on a drive knob and the bus CE is even less apparent.
 
My point is, if these are truly emulating, the user should hear a distinct difference just by passing signal through them. Rest assured, if you crank the trim on any of those consoles I mentioned to the extent in which we have to crank these to hear a difference, you are greeted with the sound of bad. Ok, so the guy you mentioned claimed it's not a trim knob and is more a pre type drive. I can buy that. However, why do we have to use at least 50% of that drive to hear an obvious difference the CE is making?
 
I'd have to tell any developer that asked me in a nice way "with all due respect Sir, I do not agree and can't buy into the hype. Unfortunately, though your DSP badge of creation and schooling are highly respected and I envy you, my ears do not hear what you are attempting to sell.....and I'll put my ears up against anyone that is considered credible in this field."
 
I will not accept that I am too deaf, dumb or clueless on what to listen for to notice the difference these plugs and other plugs of this nature give us. They do absolutely nothing when inserted on tracks and busses without touching the drive knob. That goes for the Waves NLS series too. Console emulation is not about driving a signal to the point of soft clipping though I'm sure this has been used before on real consoles for effect purposes. 
 
The circuitry of a console is what gives you that console's coloration....it is NOT determined by the amount of drive you push through it and you should not end up with drive on your sound to emulate that console. Have you ever heard of anyone driving a console? Most of that is done using outboard pre's that are made to drive and color the right way. I've never heard of anyone driving an SSL or NEVE console and bragging about how it was "the sound that made the record" have you? LOL! We hear about compressors and special tube pre's and other things...but driving a console other than to get the proper signal level?
 
What if I don't want drive on my signal? Right...then if you toggle the CE off and on, you hear 0 difference. Try this sometime. Export 3 sounds out of your DAW. 2 with console emulation off and one with it on without using the drive. The two off are there to throw you a curve. Then burn them to CD and allow them to play in a random order or let someone else que these up so you can't see what they are and write down which you think has the emulation on it.
 
Do this 3 times and see how well you can pick out the CE. If anyone can pick the right one 3 times, you are truly gifted and blessed by God. What you think you hear when you know what you're listening to can be a completely different animal once your brain knows what you're listening to by looking at a title or an "on off" switch. When you don't know for sure, it totally changes the experience.
 
For me, again...all I hear is drive and a bit of top end. The one GOOD thing I will say is, both the Sonar CE's and the Waves NLS plugs have done something right that I've not heard from any other plugs that have a "drive knob". These drive knobs literally saturate in a good way. They don't give you that digital clipping sound you get like some of these other plugs that claim "saturation" or "tube type tape drive" etc. These do a really nice job softly driving the signals when used correctly and this part impressed me most of all. But as a console emulator? Not even close considering I've had the chance to work with several during my years as an engineer.
 
It's like this...I feel I can cop any sound these consoles give us using an eq and I wouldn't have the drive getting in my way. If anything, I would call them "pre-amp emulations" because they work more like pushed pre's than console emu's to my ears.
 
Sorry you asked for my thoughts now? LOL!! :) I've done quite a bit of extensive testing with this stuff. Of course none of it means anything to anyone but me, but these are my thoughts and findings.
 
Thanks for the good luck wishes...I can't wait for the day this storm is over, my power is back and it's a thing of the past. The waiting part is getting to me and doing my head in. I'm ready to get on with it. If its my time, so be it...but waiting....uggh. Winds are kicking up now..totally dreading this...I should have bailed and flew to a friends house. :( Then I'd just worry about my house...best I go down with the ship if need be. Hopefully speak soon.
 
-Danny

No, I don't regret asking, that's what I wanted - Your opinion on these comments based on what you hear.  Thanks for replying.  As allays,  you raise some brilliant points.
 
I agree that I can't here anything without pushing them.  I'd put it down to hearing loss after thirty years of playing/listening, and a nasty ear infection a few years ago.  I've heard people from Cake saying it is a cumulative effect, that it's barely noticeable on one track, so maybe if I ever get the time I'll try A/B ing a song with/without Console Emulation on all tracks/Busses.
 
I get your point , though, that on a real-world desk, you can hear the difference on a single track.
 
Thanks again for your input, you're someone whose view I have always respected, and I've learnt a lot from your posts.
 
Good luck with the storm.  Keep us posted.  My thoughts are with you.
 
Jonathan.

If my place blows away in this storm and I'm down without power for a week or two, I may have to send some work your way. I'll be in touch if it comes to that. :)

That storm passd us last week. We got the outside bands from it. I was out of electricity for about 2 hours :)
I hope your safe Danny (and well insured)  :)

... Danny?...           Danny?...
 
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You... still there,... ?

I'm still here. :) Had power all through the storm until the winds shifted. Heard what sounded like a freight train and then the lights went out shortly after 10 pm. Just got power back an hour ago. No damage to me, my loved ones or my house. Studio 1 is fine...studio 2 in Mays Landing (20 miles outside of AC) got hit hard but is also fine with no damage. Thank you Jesus for hearing my prayers. I hope everyone else is ok.

-Danny

Glad to hear! I feel sad for Easterners going through all that. But I am dumbfounded when some are told to evacuate but stay anyway thinking 'it wasn't as bad as they said it would be last time so I'm not leaving this time' as if nature isn't allowed to outdo itself. Crazy! I would rather leave and be alive to come back than stay and ...
 
 
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soens


Glad to hear! I feel sad for Easterners going through all that. But I am dumbfounded when some are told to evacuate but stay anyway thinking 'it wasn't as bad as they said it would be last time so I'm not leaving this time' as if nature isn't allowed to outdo itself. Crazy! I would rather leave and be alive to come back than stay and ...
 
 
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Yeah it gets to be a tough situation for some people though. I mean, if I was told to evac, I'd not procrastinate. That said, some people (myself included) are pretty tied to those material belongings that we shouldn't be as tied to when a matter of "life" is on the line. Though it is said "you can always replace those things" it's not always the case. Some of the gear I have and other things could never be replaced even if I had exact duplicates. I'd be stupid enough to stick around just so my house and studio wasn't looted. You work so hard for this stuff, it's really hard to part with it to the point of it kinda being worth sticking it out for or maybe even dying for. I know that sounds terrible, but that's how much my stuff means to me so I can imagine how others feel.
 
My buddy darned near talked me into flying out to Louisiana yet the last minute my father and I decided we'd go down with our ship if we had to. There were no evac's in our neck of the woods, but we had considered just getting out of here and dealing with everything later. You know...no sense crappin' your pants while the storm is going on and then you're trapped in your home without power, heat, streets are a mess with debris, flooding etc. Yet, if you go away, you're sick to your stomach worrying about your home and other things.
 
I've had my entire life taken from me several times. All my gear has been stolen, I've lived through bankruptcies, pooin' in the woods, Sheriff going through my house, cars stolen. Ever read Job in the bible? That's me and my family to the "T" minus the extreme loss of life. When you go through stuff like that and lose it all a few times, when you climb back up the stuff you have has a value that I can't even explain. Just letting it go or accepting the loss is not as easy as it may appear....even when your life may be on the line. Sad but true.
 
As a matter of fact, I stayed in my studio working as long as I could and my other studio down near the shore had a client booked that would rather record than sit home in fear. My engineer wanted to work that night as well so it would keep his mind off of things. He also didn't want to lose any of the new gear we just put in there. It's really a crazy way of thinking for all of us and we know this...but it's so hard to let go. Especially when you have everything the way you want it in the musical realm. It takes years of setting up, trial and error and all that goes with it...and you can lose it all in an instant, so you do your best not to let that happen even at the expense of your own life. I actually wouldn't even call it stupidity. I'd call it a deep love and appreciation for things you have worked so hard for that they cloud your vision of reality. It's more a careless addiction and a loyalty so to speak.
 
-Danny

Danny - Props brother! am glad you are safe. We take so many things for granted. When life takes things from you, the resulting intensity you feel from that experience can either shape us into something malleable or something strong. You have been molded strong. That's a Beautiful Thing. Dave

Thanks Dave, much appreciated. Yeah you're so right there. I don't know how strong I am, but I'll tell ya...I sure am addicted to my stuff as it's the closest thing to "children" that I've ever had and you know how hard you work for and with kids. :)

-Danny

Danny, glad to see you here safe and "sound".