I'm with FBB on this.
 
The only time I've used the FX bin since getting X2 has been when I've been on automatic pilot and have inserted VST in FX bin by habit, before I realise..
 
I know it was not the intention of the thread, but I'd also like to stand up for the quality of the modules available for the PC.  I love them all.  The one I use least is the 4K channel compressor - anyone sensible have any comments on this one?

Just recently been working on projects that I put off in X1.  After upgrading to X2, I had some crash issues but is doing better now.  Just been going thru older projects, replacing comps and eqs with pro channel modules.  Haven't really started inserting fx vsts into pro channel, but definitely will start doing it on new projects... clicking the fx button is a hard habit to break.  
I was hoping using Sonar would offer good quality vsts in one daw, instead of bouncing around using reaper and reason... the statement above is right, that ALL daws have their own unique vst fx.  Looks like a couple of years using Sonar and Pro channel as primary until something beats it.

John


I think Funkybot misunderstood your post Karl.

I would say that calling the PC modules mediocre is at best an inability to appreciate  their unique qualities and what they offer.  

Every plugin is unique, and every plugin has a unique sound, whether or not one likes that is a matter of taste. However, how complex a plugin models hardware is measurable. Example: do the Pro Channel plugins add harmonics or alter the frequency response even when not compressing? Does the frequency response change based on the input/output gain settings? Do they distort as much as the real hardware when pushed? I'm sorry, but you can load up an analyzer of your choice, and some test impulses and measure for yourself.


The PC 1176 does not compare to the UAD 1176 Collection, the Softube F.E.T. Compressor, the IK Black 76, or the Waves CLA-76. Does it sound good enough in most circumstances? Sure. Is you're hearing messed up for liking it? No, of course not.  If you like it, you like it. If it compresses, and you think that sounds good, that's fine. Is it as an accurate or complex an emulation as native alternatives, no. Doesn't mean I'm knocking anyone for liking it, I just think there's better 1176's out there.


You're entitled to disagree.

vintagevibe

Funkybot

Frankly, I think Pro Channel has a couple of major problems:


1. The majority of PC plugins are mediocre at best. The 1176 is "eh," the SSL Comp is "eh," the EQ is "good, but nothing magical" the saturation knob is "bleh," the Console emulator makes me really appreciate all the work that went into VCC, Breverb is good. Haven't used anything else, but I'd rather not compromise my mixes by using sub-par PC plugins when I have much better plugin alternatives.


2. Portability is non-existent. Great, so I nailed a sound using Pro Channel plugins, but now I want to transfer that project to Pro Tools or another host...if everything on that channel was a VST/RTAS/AAX plugin, I can just save the preset and reopen it in whatever DAW I want to move to, and recreate the channel strip. Can't do that with Pro Channel plugins because they are a...


3. Closed Platform. If Pro Channel as a format only works in Sonar, then it's a closed format and I have no interest in that. It's a bad direction for DAW's to go in. Imagine all DAW's had unique plugin formats? It would completely fragment the marketplace. I just can't, in any good conscious, support closed plugin formats within a DAW. See #2 for why openness is important.


4. Loading VST plugin effects into a Pro Channel is buggy. I've had crashes and multiple parameters getting assigned to a single plugin. Not cool. I'd rather just use the plugin as an insert effect in the bin. I like the idea of FX Chains, but again, the closed nature of it is disappointing.

#1:  I totally disagree.  I have Waves, UAD, IK etc...  PC Channel plugs are as good - just different flavors.
#2: All DAW's built in plugs work that way.  Ever tried using Logic plugs in Pro Tools?
#3: All DAW do have unique plug in formats for the ones that come with them.
#4: Agreed.  The quickfix solved most of my problems but it still seems a bit quirky.  That might be user error.

#1: That's fine, you're entitled to disagree as to whether or not you like it. I still believe some characteristics are measurable, but you can see my last post for more as to why.
#2: These aren't just built in plugins - this is a built in plugin format that integrates directly into the DAW. Not quite the same. The argument about portability doesn't change though, so yeah, another reason against using any DAW exclusive plugins. Better to stick to open formats where you can take your plugins wherever you want. 
#3: Again, an argument against using any closed plugins. Stick to VST's in the effect bin and you can take your projects anywhere.
#4: It's still buggy, but there's definitely something to be said for being able to assign a single knob to multiple plugin paramaters. It's definitely cool, and flexible...as long as you work exclusively to Sonar and never need to use another DAW.

And no one's answered...is it possible to demo PC plugins? I'd like to checkout the LA2A.

And look...the way I see it, Pro Channel is just another option. It's a usable EQ, and some usable compressors, with a good reverb and some cool modular options that you can't do in a single plugin. I prefer not to use the PC for the reasons outlined above, but it's just another opinion. If it suits your workflow, then by all means use it.

You can love it and use it everywhere, I can choose not to use it and ignore it. That's what's great about having options. We all work differently. 

Well there were tests done on this forum and it seems they came out just fine.

People did pictures of the resulting spectra and of the actual hardware and again the comparison was quite good. 

Yes they do do what the are modeled to do. As a matter fact CW went to a lot of trouble in making sure they were accurate to the originals.

Because they are not priced high or in some cases free it is human nature to not respect them.

One thing is true the plugins that come with X2 Producer for the most part are every bit as good as those third party ones that are asking a lot of money for.

If you only look at value and not cost they are unbeatable. No other DAW comes with the quality plugins that Sonar does. 

John, is it possible for me to demo the PC LA2A? I'd love to try it for myself.

The one I use least is the 4K channel compressor - anyone sensible have any comments on this one?

It's probably fair to say that's the one I use least but I have recently started to use it more recently. I find it works well on clean 'jangly' type guitars where before where I may have used the PC2A.

It's definitely growing on me.

FastBikerBoy

The one I use least is the 4K channel compressor - anyone sensible have any comments on this one?

It's probably fair to say that's the one I use least but I have recently started to use it more recently. I find it works well on clean 'jangly' type guitars where before where I may have used the PC2A.

It's definitely growing on me.

I prefer The Glue, but they're both SSL compressor emulations so try it out on a drum buss or even the entire mix with a 30 ms attack time (10ms works great too) and the fastest release. I love that sound on drums and on a mix. You can also try to experiment with the auto release. SSL's sound great when you're getting .5-3db's of reduction. It's a cool sound that glues things together quickly. If you want some pumping, slow down the release time some. If you want more of a thwack on the transients, start experimenting with faster attack times and deeper thresholds.


Don't just try it on busses, you can also try it on electric bass, vocals, guitars, etc. But busses are really where it shines. 

Funkybot


John, is it possible for me to demo the PC LA2A? I'd love to try it for myself.

I wish you could too. 

Funkybot

FastBikerBoy

The one I use least is the 4K channel compressor - anyone sensible have any comments on this one?

It's probably fair to say that's the one I use least but I have recently started to use it more recently. I find it works well on clean 'jangly' type guitars where before where I may have used the PC2A.

It's definitely growing on me.

I prefer The Glue, but they're both SSL compressor emulations so try it out on a drum buss or even the entire mix with a 30 ms attack time (10ms works great too) and the fastest release. I love that sound on drums and on a mix. You can also try to experiment with the auto release. SSL's sound great when you're getting .5-3db's of reduction. It's a cool sound that glues things together quickly. If you want some pumping, slow down the release time some. If you want more of a thwack on the transients, start experimenting with faster attack times and deeper thresholds.


Don't just try it on busses, you can also try it on electric bass, vocals, guitars, etc. But busses are really where it shines. 

Prior to the PC I was using various T-racks processors. The PC ergonomics are what keeps me using that, as well as their quality obviously. I wouldn't use it if it was handy and crap. Can't remember the last time I loaded the T-racks stuff.