Tripecac


How can you have 100% wet with a post-fader send?

Let's say you have a reverb on a track, and at the end of the song you want the main audio to fade to 0, but the reverb to remain, so that you can *only* hear the reverb. With a pre-fader send, you would simply lower the track volume to 0 but keep the send level the same. With a post-fader send, it seems impossible.

ok I may have this wrong but you want to turn the volume of a track all the way down while the total wet signal of that effect still plays. and you want all the other effects in that track to be included? Is this right? What exactly do you want to accomplish?


Just turn off the post in the send. all the effects in that track will be sent to the bus as well. Then you can proceed with automation to turn down the fader.

The post fader button puts the send after the fader so yes it seems impossible because of the way the signal is routed.

ok I may have this wrong but you want to turn the volume of a track all the way down while the total wet signal of that effect still plays. and you want all the other effects in that track to be included? Is this right? What exactly do you want to accomplish?

I think what I'm trying to figure out is how to meet these requirements:

1) full wet/dry range - This means I need to be able to go from 100% dry to 100% wet (with no dry signal). So if, for example, I have a "pan left" effect, and my track is panned right, I should be able to pan from all the way left to all the way right without changing the track's actual pan. Make sense? In other words, I want to be able to reduce the dry output to 0% without also reducing the wet output to 0%. This doesn't seem possible with a standard "post fader" send, since if the track's output volume is 0, the input to the send is also 0, and that's not what I want.

2) insert effects included in send - This is the standard "post" send behavior. If I have an echo insert effect and a send to a reverb, I want to hear the echoes reverbed too, not just the raw signal. I think this one's pretty easy to understand, and isn't hard to accomplish by itself.

The Triton has "wet/dry" knobs for its "master" effects (which come after the insert effects). So you can set a master reverb to 0%/100%, 50/50, 70/30, 100/0 etc. The more wet, the less dry. I'm accustomed to thinking of effects like that.

However, I realize that that's not how "real" send effects usually work, since with real sends, the wet and dry outputs are handled independently; increasing the "wet" amount (the send) does not automatically decrease the dry amount, and increasing the dry amount does not automatically decrease the wet amount, and in the case of a post-fader send, increasing the dry actually increases the wet along with it.

Just turn off the post in the send. all the effects in that track will be sent to the bus as well.

I think this is what might be confusing me. In Sonar, do both "post" and "pre" sends include insert effects? Does "pre-fader" mean "pre-volume-fader" and not "pre-insert-effects-and-volume-fader"?

post: audio -> insert effects -> volume -> [branch to send] -> output

pre-insert-effects-and-volume-fader: audio -> [branch to send] -> insert effects -> volume -> output

pre-volume-fader: audio -> insert effects -> [branch to send] -> volume -> output

If Sonar's pre is a "pre-volume-fader", then it seems like I can get both requirements met simply by using a "pre" send. And if that's the case, I think I have been misunderstanding the term "pre" all this time!

Tripecac

ok I may have this wrong but you want to turn the volume of a track all the way down while the total wet signal of that effect still plays. and you want all the other effects in that track to be included? Is this right? What exactly do you want to accomplish?

I think what I'm trying to figure out is how to meet these requirements:

1) full wet/dry range - This means I need to be able to go from 100% dry to 100% wet (with no dry signal). So if, for example, I have a "pan left" effect, and my track is panned right, I should be able to pan from all the way left to all the way right without changing the track's actual pan. Make sense? In other words, I want to be able to reduce the dry output to 0% without also reducing the wet output to 0%. This doesn't seem possible with a standard "post fader" send, since if the track's output volume is 0, the input to the send is also 0, and that's not what I want.

2) insert effects included in send - This is the standard "post" send behavior. If I have an echo insert effect and a send to a reverb, I want to hear the echoes reverbed too, not just the raw signal. I think this one's pretty easy to understand, and isn't hard to accomplish by itself.

The Triton has "wet/dry" knobs for its "master" effects (which come after the insert effects). So you can set a master reverb to 0%/100%, 50/50, 70/30, 100/0 etc. The more wet, the less dry. I'm accustomed to thinking of effects like that.

However, I realize that that's not how "real" send effects usually work, since with real sends, the wet and dry outputs are handled independently; increasing the "wet" amount (the send) does not automatically decrease the dry amount, and increasing the dry amount does not automatically decrease the wet amount, and, in the case of a post-fader send, increasing the dry actually increases the wet along with it.

Just turn off the post in the send. all the effects in that track will be sent to the bus as well.

I think this is what might be confusing me. In Sonar, do both "post" and "pre" sends include insert effects? Does "pre-fader" mean "pre-volume-fader" and not "pre-insert-effects-and-volume-fader"?

post: audio -> insert effects -> volume -> [branch to send] -> output

pre-insert-effects-and-volume-fader: audio -> [branch to send] -> insert effects -> volume -> output

pre-volume-fader: audio -> insert effects -> [branch to send] -> volume -> output

If Sonar's pre is a "pre-volume-fader", then it seems like I can get both requirements met simply by using a "pre" send. And if that's the case, I think I have been misunderstanding the term "pre" all this time!

When the post button is off in the send the the send is positioned after the effects and the pro channel but before the pan and the fader When the Post switch is selected the send is the last thing before the final output of the track.


The routing goes as follows input Gain-Prochannel- effects bin (turn on the post in the pro channel to go Gain-Effects bin Pro channel


Now from that point the routing goes to the sends the post will put the send after the fader.


"1) full wet/dry range" ok I understand now. your right, It is not possible with the post button on. The post button needs to be off in order to do what you want. I hope I answered this for you. Let me know if we remain confused....lol

Okay, I have some more questions:

1) If we use a send to a reverb bus, should the reverb itself always be completely wet, so that it is not "doubling up" the dry signal? Or are there cases where it's okay (or even desirable) keep some of the dry signal in the actual reverb?

2) Does forcing a reverb (e.g,. BREVERB) to be completely wet ever alter the feel/character of the reverb itself, even if you increase the dry bus level to compensate? In other words, is (100% wet reverb bus + 100% dry bus) always going to sound the same as (50% wet reverb bus + 0% dry bus) [with output twice as loud)?

3) What levels do you use for:
- tracks' send to reverb bus
- reverb bus output
- track's [dry] volume fader
- master/dry bus output

4) Is there a way to get every audio (and synth) track to automatically include a send to a reverb bus, with the send level being a specific value? For example, can we have each new audio/synth track automatically include a 50% send to the reverb bus? Do we have to use track templates for this?

Thanks!

1) Usually set to 100% wet
2) Not in my experience. Assuming you meant 50 + 50 then there should be no difference except for volume
3) No set formula for me
4) Select the tracks hold the CTRL key insert the send and adjust at will. All selected tracks will have the send added. Of course you could also use project and track templates.

As a side note to the conversation here, I would suggest you solo the reverb bus to check for the sound your seeking as a part of your mixing process.

2) Not in my experience. Assuming you meant 50 + 50 then there should be no difference except for volume

Actually, I meant 50%/0%, where the reverb is 50% wet and 50% dry.

I read it differently. In any event, aside from volume, the sound of the reverb should not change based on the output %.