I know some people feel as though using loops is cheating. but as for me I don't want to put limits on myself. Take the limits off, explore, invent, create! I am driven to do this. It is something internal. Loops are great. Just using loops alone would create yet another limit. Throw away the rule book and think outside of the box. If something works then great if not that's fine to. I will try something else. That is what I try to do on most occasions. Anyone who has used loops knows how challenging it can be at times. I don't think it is cheating. It is still creating. It is still composing. It is still inventing. It is still changing. It is still writing. It is still music. like it or not, all these qualities makes you a musician.

this is utter bullsh*t.. you have put a giant limit and cheated yourself, once you decided that you could not come up with anything better than the loops. and there is a wealth of information in that rule book(that you threw out) about putting tunes together properly where you would not even need to use loops. im' with the purist. coming up with something that you did not know you were capable of is a tremendous feeling. and if you cant do that without the aid of technology..then you are not a musician. its wrong to to give the same validation to loops as you would a actual musician who knows their craft. and in reality using loops actually put you in a box. and im sure it is challenging to have to find more loops to get your but out. the people who actually play music can always fall-back on that rule book, whenever they get stuck, and come up with something that fits..

vespesian


"Looping" (and sampling, for that matter) are more than a technique - they're an aesthetic in modern music, that you can find in everything from Phillip Glass to Daft Punk. Mangling loops - and the sound of that - is one of the backbones of dance music (even house producers who work exclusively with "real" tracks, make efforts to produce loop-sounding effects).I use and make loops, because i like the sound ( esp. LoFi stuff)...but actually don't use much of the Sonar content because it's...uh... kind of vanilla....

Some of Steve Reich's early music was made with loops in a very literal way - he used loops of magnetic tape.  And that idea in turn inspired some fully notated music to be played by live musicians, like John Adams' "Shaker Loops".
 
Terry Riley's iconic "In C" is made of 53 short patterns that the performers repeat at will, within some loose guidelines.  The only difference between those repeating patterns and loops is that they aren't prerecorded, at least not in the original version.  I'm thinking of doing a version of it in X2 using MIDI loops for the patterns - seems like it should work, and it could be a lot of fun to do.
 
 

aleef



this is utter bullsh*t.. you have put a giant limit and cheated yourself, once you decided that you could not come up with anything better than the loops. and there is a wealth of information in that rule book(that you threw out) about putting tunes together properly where you would not even need to use loops. im' with the purist. coming up with something that you did not know you were capable of is a tremendous feeling. and if you cant do that without the aid of technology..then you are not a musician. its wrong to to give the same validation to loops as you would a actual musician who knows their craft. and in reality using loops actually put you in a box. and im sure it is challenging to have to find more loops to get your but out. the people who actually play music can always fall-back on that rule book, whenever they get stuck, and come up with something that fits..

and that is simply elitist (and closed minded) hogwash.. there are no rules in making music.. it is the result that counts.. and if a composer/producer/musician is happy taking any approach with any given tool then good for him... you are entitled to an opinion, but keep "utter bullsh*t" type comments out of it.... if no musician ever stretched boundaries or did something different we would be in groundhog day territory musically
 
p.s. wiki "musician".. and get educated.

I think this thread should win an award.....

Regarding the "cheating" argument, I don't think it matters if you program a section of drums and then cut and paste it, or import loops and manipulate them to fit the song.  The same goes for sequencing a horn line v importing one.  And keep in mind lots of creative people hire studio players.  The key element to me is whether or not you provided significant original creative content.  (This assumes, of course, that you have permission to use the loops.)

For example, cutting pictures out of magazines and pasting them up to make a collage can be artistic if you are using some interesting juxtaposition to make a cultural statement; but I would have trouble considering someone a visual artist if his/her only or primary skill was cutting out other people's work.  I don't have much respect for someone who just samples pieces of records and assembles them.

If I wrote a song to sell and could create a demo by pulling in various loops from a commerical song construction kit, it wouldn't bother me a bit; but 1-it would be more work for me to find loops that fit than just to play or sequence what I wanted and 2-I would probably not make a record that way (although I would not judge someone who did).

First, I do music as a hobby and have loved music since the first time I heard it, I never had a desire to do music until I saw you could do it on a computer, I got my first DAW and it was Sonar 2.2 and the first time I tried to get help on how to use it I came to this forum and felt bad because I used loops. I've read this tread and I have to say that loops can be a tool for teaching too, I have no musical training and using loops have made my ear better because I practice with the loops, I use them for ear training, I took a piano class, brought theory books and I still use loops to help me learn different styles so I can learn to add my own spin to my tracks. I can read music and understand music today, some people listen to records and learn to play that way, I learned by playing the loops I have on my computer I can slow them down to where I can play what I hear and work on timing and speed with that short phrase of music weather it be drums, synth lines, basslines, guitar or horns, so don't be so hard on the looper he or she my be using them to learn. 

Come on. If it's "purism" that you're after, then I'm sorry but you have to build your own instruments from scratch 


Timbre is just as important as harmony and rhythm. So if you're using a Fender Telecaster to play a guitar part, then you're basically using a "prepackaged" timbre (including the amp, stomp boxes etc) which you didn't create yourself. Then if you go ahead and lay down a synth part with a preset, you're cheating again. Surely you should program all of your sounds from scratch, on a synth that you made yourself. 


Given that music consists of harmony, rhythm and timbre, I really don't see how using loops makes you any less of a musician than someone who uses presets, or dials in a guitar sound that's based on 1000 guitar sounds he's heard before, or plays a riff that's hugely influenced by riffs he's heard before. 

Of course there is the extreme case whereupon a musician takes a loop, loops it, and that's the song. Is he any less of a musician than someone who plays an open D chord on the guitar over and over again in a straight 4/4 for 3 minutes? OK, so neither one has really composed anything. But notice that in the latter case, playing his own instrument does not necessarily make him more of a musician. He didn't "write" that D chord, nor the rhythm. 

So imagine Loop Guy finds another loop that goes with the first, only after some experimentation he shortens it by a beat in order to get some kind of polyrhythm going, and transposes it into a different key to create some harmonic curiosity. Meanwhile,  Guitar Guy throws a Gm chord into the mix. Has either overtaken the other in terms of musicianship? Does Guitar Guy's boring D/D/D/Gm "loop" make him any more of a musician, just because he came up with it and played it himself? 

My point is that no matter how you approach the task of making music - whether you use loops or you compose everything from scratch and play it yourself - the level of creativity and invention that's involved is up to you, and is what rates you as a musician. It's perfectly possible to create pieces comprised of loops which display a high level of musicianship, just as it's possible to create pieces comprised of original playing which display a low level of musicianship. 

aleef

I know some people feel as though using loops is cheating. but as for me I don't want to put limits on myself. Take the limits off, explore, invent, create! I am driven to do this. It is something internal. Loops are great. Just using loops alone would create yet another limit. Throw away the rule book and think outside of the box. If something works then great if not that's fine to. I will try something else. That is what I try to do on most occasions. Anyone who has used loops knows how challenging it can be at times. I don't think it is cheating. It is still creating. It is still composing. It is still inventing. It is still changing. It is still writing. It is still music. like it or not, all these qualities makes you a musician.

this is utter bullsh*t.. you have put a giant limit and cheated yourself, once you decided that you could not come up with anything better than the loops. and there is a wealth of information in that rule book(that you threw out) about putting tunes together properly where you would not even need to use loops. im' with the purist. coming up with something that you did not know you were capable of is a tremendous feeling. and if you cant do that without the aid of technology..then you are not a musician. its wrong to to give the same validation to loops as you would a actual musician who knows their craft. and in reality using loops actually put you in a box. and im sure it is challenging to have to find more loops to get your but out. the people who actually play music can always fall-back on that rule book, whenever they get stuck, and come up with something that fits..

I play classical guitar and contemporary finger style acoustic guitar. I also play bass and I have composed many Jazz and funk bass lines. I also play Drums and percussion. I started out playing drums. I played with many bands over the years and I have played with orchestras. In addition to this I have played and performed with the Tulsa Guitar Society.


Now you would be amazed at just how many classical guitar players there are that think using alternate tunings and open tunings is cheating. If I use open D tuning and play any classical piece then I am cheating. If I use my pinky heaven forbid, then that is a big no no.


Now I play guitar tuned over 25 different ways. I don't throw out the entire rule book when using open tunings. in fact, a lot of music theory was applied to these tunings to learn my way around. About the only thing I set aside and threw out were the traditions. Just the things that are shunned by the elites. You would be surprised at how many people get upset when you don't abide by their tradition. I don't discount all the information in the rule book I go outside of the rule book when a certain rule does not work.


So tell me something. Let's say I need a piano track so I call up true pianos and draw in the notes I want using the piano roll view. Now I don't play piano. Am I cheating?


Suppose I then make a midi loop and use it throughout the song. Am I cheating?


What is the difference in using a piano midi loop or getting someone to play a real piano? or for that matter what is the difference in having someone play the notes and making a loop out of that? (other then the money required to hire the piano player) Does that make me any less of a musician for looping something or using loops?


I use all the same recording practices you probably do in the rule book, but the difference is I don't confine myself to the rule book.


your whole reply sounds like elitist talk to me. If you don't want to ummm corrupt yourself by using loops then don't use them, but you should not condemn those who do until you see how they have helped other people express themselves with their music.

Mystic38

you are entitled to an opinion, but keep "utter bullsh*t" type comments out of it....

 
Thanks Mystic.  I concur wholeheartedly!
 
This is beginning to sound like Obama-  "You didn't build that!"  LMAO  OK,  I'm sorry, no more political comments from me.
 
Talent exists on all levels...from None to Stellar.  All tools should be available to anyone who wants to "create" something "musical" to the extent they can afford it.
 
Add hey... every single sound in my Yamaha Motif keyboard was "sampled" (ie- played by) someone else.  And a bunch of other folks went to great lengths to take those sounds that "someone else played", and assemble them into the many voices in that keyboard.  I could never do that!!!  But I can sure make music with my keyboard (and all the other synths I have), and I can even toss a few sample loops into a song and make music with them too!  Like I said before, NO ONE has ever listened to any of my songs and said "that's not music".
 
A person can make "music" out of beating on trees (if they are in tune...hehehe), thumping on his thoat, or getting a bunch of guys together who can fart in an organized way....so why not loops?  (And I'm not talking about just throwing some loops onto a track pane and making the song that the loops came from...which is OK too), I'm talking about using them MUSICALLY....being creative with them by using the same side of the brain I use when I play an Am9 chord on my guitar.
 
There are no rules, as stated above several times.  And beauty IS in the eye of the beholder.  Take Rap for example.  I find nothing musical or redeeming about it, but obviously MILLIONS of other folks do.
 
I guess that's why there's so many stations on the radio or XM.
 
Have a great day!
 
PS-  I'm very grateful to have selected and purchased SONAR X2 as my recording format, and hope you guys will enjoy the music I create with it, as I look forward to hearing yours too...purists and loopers alike!

tbosco

Mystic38

you are entitled to an opinion, but keep "utter bullsh*t" type comments out of it....

 
Thanks Mystic.  I concur wholeheartedly!
 
Talent exists on all levels...from None to Stellar.  All tools should be available to anyone who wants to "create" something "musical" to the extent they can afford it.
 
so why not loops?  (And I'm not talking about just throwing some loops onto a track pane and making the song that the loops came from...which is OK too), I'm talking about using them MUSICALLY....being creative with them by using the same side of the brain I use when I play an Am9 chord on my guitar.
 
There are no rules, as stated above several times.  And beauty IS in the eye of the beholder.  Take Rap for example.  I find nothing musical or redeeming about it, but obviously MILLIONS of other folks do.
 
I guess that's why there's so many stations on the radio or XM.
 
Have a great day!
 
PS-  I'm very grateful to have selected and purchased SONAR X2 as my recording format, and hope you guys will enjoy the music I create with it, as I look forward to hearing yours too...purists and loopers alike!

+ 1....Looking forward to hearing your music tbosco