• SONAR
  • Sonar X2 - Capability to start song at negative number in the timeline?
2012/09/29 00:01:20
Compguy
I hope one of you are going to tell me that the functionality is there but I'm just not aware of it.
 
If you're a guitarist, you know that the first chord of a song is struck well before the actual zero point on the timeline. Since it takes time to strum all 6 strings, the first three sound before zero while the remaining three sound after. Why hasn't Cakewalk built in the capability to start a song at -1 measure (or whatever unit is desired) so that measure numbers will be accurate? I hate having to start my songs on 2 or three just to accomodate the necessary early first strum of the guitar.
 
Is this a capability of Sonar 2 or am I correct that we must compensate by starting the song 1 or 2 measures late, thereby throwing off the actual measure numbers?
2012/09/29 00:17:42
jrfrogers
The only way I've dealt with that is to start a couple measures late like you mentioned.  Yes the measure numbers are off, but at least you get a nice controlled start.
2012/09/29 00:42:30
mudgel
It's been discussed ad infinitum but no we can't start with a - measure count in SONAR.
as other have suggested a workaround is the only way to manage the issue of having some empty bars at start.

Not much help when resolving to video etc but that's it folks.
2012/09/29 01:03:08
Teds_Studio
We had to do this anyway back in the days of syncing to timecode just to make sure everything had time to sync up before the project started.  I always did (and still do) start my projects at least 3 or 4 measures in.  Never has been a problem for me.  I just trim the excess off when mixed.
2012/09/29 01:20:14
Kev999

Different users have different opinions on whether the timeline should start at 1, 0 or a negative number.  This was my suggestion, put forward in a previous thread, which I believe would make the problem redundant if implemented:  

Keep the existing timeline as it stands, but have an additional customisable timeline.  This second timeline can be divided up as required by the user to represent different sections of the song, e.g. intro, verses, choruses, bridges or whatever.  Each section can be assigned a colour and a starting number which could be 1 or 0 or some offset.  It could also be assigned a name or descriptive piece of text.  When zoomed out the sections of the song would be obvious by the colours.  When zoomed in it would be easy to home in on, for example, the 6th bar of the 2nd chorus.
2012/09/29 01:27:58
gearandguitars
ahem...  in detail at the link.  

Sonar X1 : The "0" Bar and Markers Problem







2012/09/29 01:37:29
Teds_Studio
That would be a great idea Kev....I've never really worried about the number of measures in a song....I am more concerned with the amount of time.

As GandG posted....markers are a great way of seeing what is where when it comes to sections or pieces of a song or project....but that doesn't solve the fact that some want 0 to start a measure or two into the project.

I can also see where this would be a problem if you are using the metronome "count in".  But I've always used a midi triggered click...which starts the count in at measure 2-4...depending on the tempo of the song.

This again, goes back to the days of needing tape based machines to have time to sync to timecode.  I just never changed my way of thinking and continue with this :) .
2012/09/29 03:05:08
Bristol_Jonesey
There is another good reason to start all projects at least a measure or 2 in - Midi.

I don't know if this still happens or whether cakewalk cured the problem (sometime after 6PE?) but if your project starts with any kind of Midi, it was common for notes starting at 01:01:000 not to sound. Sonar would take a few msec to get everything buffered properly so the recommended solution was to start at 02:01:000 - or even later.

I've been doing this for so long now it's second nature
2012/09/29 09:32:13
js516
You defiantly want to start a project with MIDI a few measures in. It isn't a Sonar issue, its just the fact that synths and midi controlled FX units need to have enough time to respond to banks/patch changes, controller initialization, and any sysex messages in order to set themselves up for a project. Also, the extra measures let midi hardware settle into consistently tracking Midi timing messages.

For instance, my Blofeld needs at least one measure to sync up its arpeggiator to the external midi clock. If I start sending note on messages at time 0, the first few notes generated by the arpeggiator will lag, then catch up to the external midi clock.

But it would be nice to offset the timeline so that you can start a number of measures in, but have the measure/beat start counting at 01:01:00. It makes it easier for musicians to locate the song position on sheet music, which always starts at measure 1.

Just simply allowing for an offset to be applied (say entering -02:01:00) by the user would work great. Having this settable independently for each method of counting (musical, smpte, samples, etc) would be fantastic. Something like that in, say the project preferences, would work great. I'd be in love if it can be applied to screen sets. :)
2012/09/29 10:43:05
Compguy
Seems like the best solution would be to program in "Timeline Offset". This would simply offset the measure numbers by yhe desired amount. Or else the could have a "Soft Start" switch which would give the user a 1 measure buffer zone before zero.

It's only common sense that by this time in DAWs' development there should be a methodology to ensure correct measure counts.
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