Man- AMEN subtlearts!!! To everything you just said!

Stretch tuning is necessary with lots of situations- like many 5-string basses- those sustained low notes with harmonics... must be stretched and pitched flatter to have their upper harmonics sound in tune with the rest of the music! And how many times over an hour or two I found a guitar- when punching a hard part, and touch-up tuning as you go- gradually drifts sharper but in tune to itself... in such situations having a simple Vari-Pitch or Vari-speed knob just would make recording so much easier- it did in the old days, anyway. 

It's often surprising to me how little it seems that people rely on their EARS as much as you used to have to do! (in the OLD days... yes, I'm a bag!) No offence, anyone... just that I notice with all the auto-tune and quantizing, snapping-to-grid, step recording, etc... it seems like just catching a groove and playing music freely and skillfully doesn't seem as much as a priority as it used to be. And I DO sometimes hear a loss of feel and emotion because of it! Not that there's anything wrong with the new tools- I love 'em and use 'em! Sorta off-topic- sorry! Old studio cat micro-rant... 

(Get off my lawn)

For years, I have always assumed that a piano or hammered dulcimer goes out of tune non-linearly. That is to say each string has its own individual rate of drift from its tuned frequency. I never imagined that a knob on a tape recorder could make a stringed instrument that hasn't been tuned since last Monday or Philadelphia sound like it is in tune.

bvideo


For years, I have always assumed that a piano or hammered dulcimer goes out of tune non-linearly. That is to say each string has its own individual rate of drift from its tuned frequency. I never imagined that a knob on a tape recorder could make a stringed instrument that hasn't been tuned since last Monday or Philadelphia sound like it is in tune.

This should be a sticky

Seems it would much easier just to transpose the oddball instrument to the rest of the group. Most big studios have a big piano. Perhaps they tune everything to that piano? Also, in Sonar you given the choice of transposing individual tracks. Perhaps it's more feasible than transposing the entire project. Slowing it down without changing pitch would be a good feature. I've often wanted to do that while editing a track.

@Subtlearts
 
I agree with absolutely everything you've said and it is the perfect statement FOR varispeed in Sonar.
 
I don't think anyone is in resistance to it being implemented well in Sonar and be able to provide 'both' styles of either staying in it's original pitch or the pitch being adjusted along with the speed (as in traditional Varispeed).  In fact doing it well on both counts would put Sonar ahead of the pack, because nothing to my mind as yet has it covered perfectly yet. 
 
The problem here has come about because it's just another case of the OP trying to elicit controversy where there is none rather than simply asking for help for a simple problem, or putting a straight forward case for Varispeed in Sonar as well as you just did.
 
He knows it, and I know it.

bvideo- I never imagined that a knob on a tape recorder could make a stringed instrument that hasn't been tuned since last Monday or Philadelphia sound like it is in tune.

Well of course it won't... but it sure can improve how that instrument, if it's hard to tune or mostly just tuned to itself- will sound compared with previously recorded tracks!

Well, first of all, I'm certainly not advocating that "if everybody just plays in tune then everythings fine" except in the sense of any instrument that can be tuned should be if possible.  If you have to use studio trickery, fine.  Sometimes its the only way to get the job done.

Second, Varispeed...like so many have said...alters both pitch AND time.  This is really NOT what's needed to simply get an instrument to sound "in tune" with the mix...unless you want it to sound different to it's original sound as well.  Which, for some folks, I cannot imagine what they really want or need.  Go on with your bad selves.

Third, as I noted, there were instruments on Mike's list that can be easily, or with some professionalism, tuned (twelve string guitar, etc...) and should be.  BUT...

Fourth, to agree with what bvideo said, these problem instruments do not always go out of tune linearly and "varispeed" as you would have it or even simple pitch transposition without time alteration would not solve that problem at all.  The instrument would still be out of tune with itself.

Fifth, many instruments which arent in tune and/or cannot be tuned are simply recorded as is (i.e. my steel drum reference) and we've grown accustomed to their "out of tuneness". 

Sixth, I heartily support the addition of ANY new feature that will help folks do whatever in the heck they think they need to do with it.  But I also think it's important to use correct terminology when describing said feature and to have valid reasoning to bolster their argument. 

Seventh, with the new abilities in digital technology there are many different ways of skinning the "out of tune" cat (although we tend to frown on out of tune cats in our jazz sessions) that are available right now both within and without Sonar. 

I hope this is "clear" enough ( I really was asking a sincere question there, ol pal).  But if it's not, that's OK.  But I grow weary of this now and need a good nap:-)

Hey ol' pal, I'm not sure if you were responding to me (the numerical list suggests possibly you were) but to be clear, I certainly did not intend to single out anything you had said. My post was really just some rambling thoughts about tuning and the 'feature request' at hand. 

In any case, I actually agree with most of what you've said above, and in several cases you seem to be agreeing with points I made - for example, I explicitly indicated that varispeed would not solve most of the 'subtle, complicated' problems (if indeed they are problems) of pitch, and I was very careful to clarify exactly what I meant by 'varispeed' and to differentiate it from pitch-and-time-independent processing (or 'studio trickery' as you put it... yes, a necessary evil sometimes). And I pointed out that workarounds exist, but they are appreciably different in a workflow sense than just having the feature available, as it is in some other DAWs. 


So I feel like you're retorting, in kind of an argumentative way, as if my post were an attack on something you'd said - which again was not intended at all - but not really disagreeing with anything I said. Quite possibly I've misunderstood; it wouldn't be the first time...

I'd love to hang at one of your jazz sessions, whether the cats are in tune or not! 

Nah, ol pal.  Sorry, I wasn't referring to you except with the "everyone should just play in tune" thingy.  Just in general to many points raised in this ol thread.  As you say...we mostly agree...as per usual:-)  Mike, I think, half facetiously asked me to be clear so I was trying to do that.  Who knows if I succeeded??  Sorry you felt singled out.  And besides...who listen's to my dimbulbed ramblins, anyways? :-)

been watching/reading this thread with interest and it does seem to have triggered a bunch of responses with some "heat". I have to admit that my experience of live recording has been limited to instruments that are easility tuned (guitars  ) so I have never had to deal with the issue of an instrument that is not tuned to the same pitch as the other instruments. That being said, I thought that the point that Mike was making was not that the "out of tune" instrument would be recorded as if it were in tune but simply that the guide track would played back at the pitch that was appropriate to the "out of tune" instrument so that the musician would hear the parts of the song as if they were in tune and therefore perform their part better. Actual fixing of the pitch would be carried out post recording. Many of the suggested workarounds seem to be aimed at fixing the "problem" in real time which seems to be a very complex thing to achieve. So in summary it sounds like Mike was looking for something akin to the learning capabilities available with a number of guitar practice/recording tools (e.g.  the Tascam GTR-1) which allow a song to be played at a different pitch. For example SRV played in Eb - my guitar is in standard tuning so i can play the song back at the appropriate pitch so that I sound in tune. If this is the case then I would definitely add my voice to the request.

Apologies generally if I am misunderstanding here
Apologies to Mike if I am putting words in your mouth