2012/09/18 18:40:29
SteveStrummerUK
John


bapu


SteveStrummerUK


Does X2 have a jazz guitar patch for Dim Pro?


I'm reliably informed that they're a bugger to tune to concert pitch though....

There is no Jazz without DimPro, roight?


I heard many instruments are out of tune in DimPro.


Thats because they were recorded using varispeed!


 
 
2012/09/18 18:44:07
The Maillard Reaction
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2012/09/18 18:48:17
The Maillard Reaction
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2012/09/18 19:16:51
yorolpal
While a detailed study on the use of guitar in every jazz band big or not in the 20th century is self evidently beyond the scope of both this thread and most all of its participants...myself included...a cursory reading of the, admittedly truncated, Wikipedia page on Jazz Guitar should be enough to convey both the importance and integral usage of guitar in ALL iterations and genres of what is loosely termed "jazz".  I certainly can't speak to the difficulties that any particular guitarist might have faced in simply attempting to ply their trade.  But I can say unequivocally that enough were successful that the guitar is considered to be one of jazz's essential instruments.  I can also state that I certainly didn't mean to sound flippant though I'll gladly plead guilty to your "jovial manner" description. Plus in actuality I'm not meaning to "argue" with you at all as I have both witnessed and discovered personally that that, as Barney Frank once told a so-called constiuent, would be like arguing with a dining table.  Course I say that with love:-)
2012/09/18 19:17:40
mixmkr
I'm a graduate of Berklee from the 70's, and although I am a long way from an accomplished jazz guitar player, I never heard once about the problem with the guitar not fitting in, due to tuning issues.  In actuality it was more so the piano that has its' querky form of tuning, if you ask me.  But hey...if the favorite interval at the time was ALWAYS the tritone, who cares about a little tuning.

Not debating something, but just noting I've never heard of that situation.  I am finding it kinda hard to realize it was so much of an issue.  If anything the guitar was more a rhythmic instrument anyway.
2012/09/18 19:43:19
Jonbouy
mike_mccue


It's long been my impression that members of traditional Jazz ensembles routinely denigrate the few guitarists they allow on stage because a guitar with a traditional fretboard tends to sound sour when arranged with the piano.

All the other instruments get along fine... and then there's the guitarist.

Hint, this has nothing to do with Varispeed but rather is meant to further the idea that even with familiar and popular instruments, anything you can do to make all the instruments sound sweeter is helpful.


best regards,
mike
Quick, re-purpose the thread from it's orignal intent because it was ill-concieved baloney from the outset.
 
It's the McQ way.  "Varisubject."
 
 
2012/09/18 19:56:30
Jonbouy
mike_mccue


I have to go to work,

The guitarist in King Oliver's Jazz band was there because the Banjo had recently gone out of style in the context and they still needed someone to go chukka chukka in the background.

The role of guitar isn't mentioned in the article John linked to... so I'll refer any one curious to a couple books by Gunther Schuller.

Bye for now.

:-)
I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.
 
Just sayin...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSQVvjiXxJU
Carefully note the absent guitar and ponder the reasons why that may be.
 
It's particularly poignant in establishing the emphasis for the reasons that the X series currently omits varispeed and gives clear insight in why that hammered dulcimer should remain a few cents adrift.
 
(or does it?)
2012/09/18 20:13:40
Jonbouy
subtlearts


Hi all. A few thoughts:

1. I personally absolutely support the proposition (a few versions old now at least) of including traditional varispeed functionality in Sonar, i.e. sample-rate-based, which modifies pitch and time simultaneously, as it is implemented in Reaper. I probably wouldn't use it much myself but I can absolutely see the usefulness of it, if only because it's a long-standing studio technique which can be and has been used to great creative effect (Les Paul anyone?). 

2. Yes, there are workarounds to get generally the same effect; no, none of them are exactly the same thing, and none of them are as simple or elegant as just including the feature. So why the resistance?


3. I guess that from the perspective of people that don't have any use for the feature, they don't want CW to 'waste' dev resources on something that they won't use (the same argument usually used to beat down the Staff View enthusiasts who hope without hope every year that something will have improved in that area); but from the perspective of those who would really like the feature, not a workaround, it's hard to see why people are so upset at the proposition. 


4. I would also be happy to see some kind of robust implementation of pitch-and-time-independent variability, along the lines of what is now implemented in Reason (as of the inclusion of the Record functionality in v6). This is not the same thing, however. 

5. I am both a piano player and a piano tuner; suffice to say that tuning a piano is not something for the uninitiated to attempt with (or without) a strobe tuner. A Rhodes, OK, but a piano is a horse of a different feather. Due to the double/triple strings, the interaction of said strings stretched under high tension over a bridge mounted on a thin wooden soundboard, and the pins-in-wood tuning mechanism, not to mention the inharmonicity of individual strings and the innate tension between high harmonics of low strings and the fundamentals of high strings, usually solved by a degree of 'stretching'... suffice to say it's a non-trivial endeavour. 

6. Don't even get me started about accordions. 

7. A-440 is nowhere near as universal a standard as people seem to think, certainly not here in Europe in any case; modern orchestras regularly (almost universally) tune considerably higher, whereas 'period' instruments in, say, Baroque orchestras are often much lower, the instruments having been built with (then-standard) lower tunings in mind. In some cases they literally cannot be made to play in tune at modern pitch. When I tune an older piano I am often faced with a dilemma - try to get it up to a modern pitch (or higher - 442 is sometimes requested over here) where it will probably not stay in tune very well, or leave it where it is and put it in tune with itself. It depends on how the instrument will be used. 

8. I say all this to illustrate that the 'everybody should just play in tune and everything will be OK' line of reasoning is not very realistic, since 'in tune' is really a relative concept - our entire system of tuning, equal-temperament, is actually just a kind of compromise to get around physical/mathematical tuning problems that are built in to the universe, and if you took a modern piano tuned to equal-temperament at A-440 back in time and played it for people 400 years ago they would find it horribly out of tune. Even today, orchestral instruments capable of just-intonation tune their intervals more dynamically while playing, because, well, it sounds better. When I was at university I played French Horn as a second instrument (I was in the jazz piano program), and played in a couple of classical ensembles where learning to bend notes up or down based on whether we were playing the 5th or the 3d of a given chord was a big part of making the ensemble sound more in tune. It's not as simple as sticking a tuner on the instrument and getting the needle to line up. Tuning is subtle, difficult, complicated stuff. 

9. 'Varispeed' in any manifestation will obviously not solve all of these problems, but it's a handy tool to have in the arsenal for an engineer to solve a problem quickly, and/or it can be used really creatively, so maybe we can keep the idea separate from how anyone feels about Mike or how he presents his ideas or suggestions? If we were able to maintain that as a guiding principle - try to focus on the idea at hand, not whatever personal baggage might be floating around, it might help things stay more constructive and less combative around here... just a thought. I don't know, I've been away for a while, and I know it's easy to get caught up in these things, but that's my observation about the general tone. 
To recap Mike, this is the post that fits the title you put forward.
 
Nothing you've said so far came close.
 
Can you see that this answers Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed so much better than your half-baked sideways swipe?
 
It even covers your little Hammered Dulcimer concern and shows how everyone else can benefit too, and even without any trace of the famously noted and customary appendige swinging manner you are renowned for adopting. 
 
When you can cite others of a focus on trying to portray many ideas in a cursory jovial manner, you will understand the importance of the feature you are suggesting should benefit from the considered and thoughtful attention it was given by the poster I've quoted rather than just a face saving excercise by yourself to justify kicking off the topic on the wrong foot. 
 
The trivial job you require it to do in the OP is easily catered for already and you've been given a number of suggestions of how to deal with it.
As has been suggested I may as well reason with the dining table but at least I tried, and because I believe it would put Sonar in the driving seat currently as nothing out there as yet fulfils the remit outlined above fully as yet, because it is not as trivial an ask as you tried to make out.
 
 

2012/09/18 20:46:23
trimph1
OK....now here is an interesting scenario for your perusal.

Suppose you are recording a Gamelan orchestra mixed in with a bunch of western instruments. Which way would you tune it to? And how?
2012/09/18 20:50:19
Jonbouy
trimph1


OK....now here is an interesting scenario for your perusal.

Suppose you are recording a Gamelan orchestra mixed in with a bunch of western instruments. Which way would you tune it to? And how?
I'd get Buzz Feinstein in to weave the fabric between the orient and the west to make a comfort blanket to wrap us all snug and warm in.
 
Then I'd just leave it to fall where it landed or zap it with Stutter Edit depending on the melodic content and ambient vibe it created as a work.
 
It would have to be a judgement call based on how the chicks were dancing to it.
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