Jonbouy

It seems sort of like a cheap shot to dwell on my mention of a single instrument and player that I enjoy helping.

 
That was the vehicle that you actually used as a cheap shot to highlight Sonar's lack of varispeed that's probably why it got mentioned.
 
Have you even used 'varispeed' in the context of digital recording?  Have you noticed how it differs from controlling a mechanical rotary tape transport?
 
 

I have, many times. Please elaborate on the differences and why this is an issue.

 

Your major difficulty seems to lie at the keyboard end of your equipment.
 
 

Is that really necessary? 
 
Further complicating things are these type of responses:
 

"Varispeed might be old hat to a tape whirring round but in the digital domain it's a fairly new thing.
 

I don't consider almost twenty years as "relatively new". And it was in use in some digital recorders before that.

 
Where 'varispeed' comes into it's own for me is when I want to record a phrase which I'm not capable of playing at the required tempo so I can record it slower and then increase the tempo to fit.

 

Under that circumstance it would be necessary to either tune your instrument quite differently or play in a different key. So, to use your own example, if you wanted to play a "half-speed" Van Halen solo and bump it from 80 to 150 BPM you'd have to play the solo almost one full octave lower or tune the instrument down almost 12 semi-tones before recording (not likely...). Try tuning a guitar with a floating bridge down ONE semi-tone, it's a pain. Id like to know what program you use to do this and how you compensate exact tempo changes to exact tuning changes down to the cent. Please elaborate.
 

Wait lets see, Mike

It's only recreational, but it has to be perfect.
 
 

In fact, Mike posted "I don't understand the need to quibble as if it's merely recreational. ". I'm not taking sides here but if this is the level of attention you give his posts...

I haven't read all the replies so this may have already been said, then again I might completely have missed the point. I find many of th OPs points hard to follow, what with me being on a lower plane and all that but....
 
Doesn't this already exist just not in one button format? Convert audio to groove clips, set them to follow pitch and stretch to tempo. Change required tempo, insert pitch marker with required pitch at project start. Done. I've just changed a project like that and seems to achieve the desired result.
 
Undoudtedly a one button option would be quicker it must have taken me nearly 15 seconds to do but a "one button" option would arguably have less control. I'm all for adding one though, more features the better.
 
If I've missed the point sorry, I'll go back to sleep.
 
EDIT: Then again perhaps a one button option would count as "Dumbing Down" so perhaps it's better off the way it is. I get confused easily.

The quality difference it must be pointed out is not major as it still sounds great in Studio One even when transposed a fair way. Jeff, please excuse the lack of proper quoting...computer with non-supported browser. The difference is indeed not major, but when you start getting into situations where multiple strings are transposed up an octave, you can definitely hear the difference. As I don't use Sonar for live performance, I think the fidelity/time tradeoff is worth it, especially with something like a pseud-acoustic 12-string isolated in a track. I can actually pull that off in Sonar.

I do think SToons comments about "varispeed" vs. "varispeed" are worth noting. With tape, varispeed did indeed change pitch and time, and digital systems have been able to do that for years by changing sample rate (ADAT's famous "use the varispeed to change from the 48kHz default to 44.1kHz" is a good example of that). The ability to change pitch and time simultaneously while retaining good audio quality is a more recent development, and something you couldn't do with tape.

The ability to change pitch and time simultaneously while retaining good audio quality is a more recent development, and something you couldn't do with tape.

 
@SToons
 
That is precisely what I'm talking about by 'varispeed' being a relatively new thing, and also answers the point of how it can differ from tape.
 
And yes the ability to play something at 80 bpm to replay at 150 is something to behold, you ought to try it, you play it in exactly the same key and tuning, just like you would with a midi phrase, changing the tempo leaves it unaffected in every other aspect.
 
You see 'varispeed' is one of those loose terms (similar to gapless audio) that means different things to different people.  To some it means pitch shifting, to others time stretching to me it is the ability to alter tempo (speed) while retaining every other aspect as intended (as well as being able to alter pitch if necessary) and in real time.  What is being discussed here is pitch shifting, not 'varispeed', pitch shifting has been available in Sonar to some degree or another for many years.  It obviously is not something he does regularly as he'd have found one of the countless ways of successfully approaching it already.
 
The complaint was to do with Sonar not providing pitch shifting capabilities, which it does, rather than providing real-time 'varispeed' which it doesn't.
 
If you follow the OP to any extent you will have realised this was just a mal-constructed opportunity to knock Sonar yet again IMO.  Any benefit of the doubt that I have previously had toward the OP evaporated long ago, again he wasn't interested in the many solutions offered that will work here, the thinly veiled point was to carry forward some idea the Sonar is lacking.
 
He can do what he is describing here easily as has already been suggest by bouncing down a mix with the pitch slightly altered so that the out of tune hammered dulcimer 'massive' can track to it and then shift the pitch of the resultant track back to fit the main mix.  It's purely a pitch shifting job and a trivial one at that.
 
Better still tune the thing, or if you do a lot of hammered dulcimer get an 'in house' one and do it properly.
 
Accelerando's and Ritardando's whilst available with midi scores are nigh impossible with audio without varispeed.  That would be a better point to make if you wanted to cite Sonar's lack of varispeed.  The tuning argument was a lame construct to launch such a transparent campaign the OP consisted of.
 
Had Mike had asked the simple question of how to track a slightly sharp or flat instrument against concert pitched backing he'd have got many simple answers from people that would have solved his problem and he'd have realised that Sonar is not lacking in this ability.  The simplest way of solving this for me would to be to record a midi guide for the guy to track to and knock the tuning of the VSTi used for that to suit the 'out of tune' instrument, then shift the stem into tune once it's been tracked.
 
He also forgets to mention using a tape based solution wasn't without it's drawbacks either, like the tape shifting from it's azimuth when the speed is changed and the fact you'd either have to play slower or faster to compensate for the speed change to get the right pitch, altering the feel of playing the piece for the musician involved.
 
But why ask for help when you can pretend to know it all and say the product you chose to use is flawed?
 
 

*

If you have Sound Forge installed I think you'll find you'll already have a DX version you can use in 32 bit Sonar already.  Somebody has already kindly posted a freeware one for your benefit that will cover you here also.
 
Either that as I said use a midi guide and detune the VSTi to match the errant instrument.
 
Pitch shift it when you get it in the can.
 
No diffident 'round tripping' nor 'varispeed' required, no added latency either.
 
You'll probably find a reason why that is unworkable though to further your agenda.
 
HTH
 
Hey, I have an app. that does 'Varispeed' in it's true sense but I still use Sonar because it does many things the other app doesn't do as well.  How about that?  I don't do dulcimers I must admit but I have had outstanding success with an elastic band bass. 

  What you should do, Mike, is to bounce the whole mix to one track, apply the effect to that track, and then, while soloing the track or maybe after having created a completely new (temporary) project from the varispeed track, start recording your dulcimer or pan flute or whatever.

I have the last good version of Adobe Audition 3 in Sonar's tool options. It does an excellent job with pitch raise/lower with very few artifacts. It allows me to maintain pitch and alter tempo or maintain tempo and alter pitch. It doesn't take long...about 10-15 seconds. Would I like to see something like this in Sonar? To be honest, I really don't have a need for it other than for learning a cover tune that may be tuned down a half step. I tune to 440 and like SToons, use a floating Floyd so retuning for me is really not an option.

I have the pitch option in Reaper and Studio One 2 and have rarely used it, so I'm on the fence about whether it's something *I* would like to see in Sonar. If the majority wants it though, by all means add it.

Not to stir up a hornets nest, but I have to ask you guys your opinion. What are your thoughts on this whole feature request thing? To me, I have always felt it was a way to shut us up. In all my years of putting in requests both as an individual as well as in groups of people, not once has anything I've ever asked for been implemented. It sincerely makes me feel:

A. We're listening but we don't agree

B. Sorry, we'd have to re-write the entire program for that

C. Give 'em the feature request thing to shut them up to make them feel they matter but don't implement anything unless it's mind-blowing

A & B are definites I'm sure. C is what I think the reality is though. Could you imagine how different Sonar would be if WE had the power to add our input since we are users and not sellers? We'd have a gapless audio engine, (I scream when the audio engine shuts down on me...I SOOO hate it!) better notation/staff view, colors and customization (I will still never forgive whoever that was that just decided to pull the plug and decide on that for us) vari-speed, better video capabilities and probably less plugins. The program makes the plugins, the plugins and plug capabilities don't make the program, ya know? Pro Channel and it's plugs are a welcomed addtition for me...but there are more important things I'd rather see done to Sonar that are necessities in my opinion.

-Danny

Should be able to put it into Sonar. I was reading and article and they were talking about Roland varispeed available in R-mix(full version). And it works great!