Psychobillybob


Anything that moves real air will have an advantage over something that moves digital air...this is just the nature of the planet we live in...

not to mention that $2000 of amps pedals and cabinets should sound better than a $99 plugin.
 
As far as i can determine, when it comes down to electronic simulations (and samples) of instruments the only folks who say instrument A sound totally like an authentic original are folks who do not play instrument A..so whether that is strings, piano, ac. or elec. guitar it applies.. however the point is that for cheap money we can make really really good reproductions of great sounding instruments such that they at least sound realistic in the construct of a mix.. and that is a good thing.
 
I am certainly looking forward to putting the strat through this... i tried GR4 & 5 and wasnt particularly impressed.
 
 

I think as a general rule this is all true, however as technology continues to advance and more complex algorithms develop to simulate the real...it IS possible to place things in a mix to occupy space once reserved for real world components...take for instance Hans Zimmers use of samples in movie soundtracks/etc...

I think the best use at this time is to fill up pockets of audio space with virtual where it doesn't really distract...

The other very authentic use of some of this, is the purely creative and out of the box use...much like Peter Gabriels use of samples long ages past...

There was a sound he did on the "Up" album that reminded me of an elephant trumpeting, what it actually was though, was a Djembe sound, looped, then looped again, until it began to break up and distort, then reversed...

So samples and synthetics do have a place, but I am in agreement the amp sims have a lot of audio space to fill up but remember the arena that stuff is parked in is also nearly 50 years of Rock and Roll and is still a developing universe of soundscapes...

Mystic38

Psychobillybob


Anything that moves real air will have an advantage over something that moves digital air...this is just the nature of the planet we live in...

not to mention that $2000 of amps pedals and cabinets should sound better than a $99 plugin.
 
As far as i can determine, when it comes down to electronic simulations (and samples) of instruments the only folks who say instrument A sound totally like an authentic original are folks who do not play instrument A..so whether that is strings, piano, ac. or elec. guitar it applies.. however the point is that for cheap money we can make really really good reproductions of great sounding instruments such that they at least sound realistic in the construct of a mix.. and that is a good thing.
 
I am certainly looking forward to putting the strat through this... i tried GR4 & 5 and wasnt particularly impressed.
 
 

I firmly believe that no amp sim is ever going to quite match a well-mic'd, well-setup guitar amp with a great guitar, great pedals and a great player. But these plugs are damned handy for extra tracks, stuff with lots of FX on it and for saving a bad tone after the fact.

One of the ways I plan on using this stuff is into a real amp mic'd up...rather than a long string of pedals and traking sheets...a couple of presets and the sound is there...

A greenback with an sm57 in front....

As I have played with the sounds there are some very usable tones t capture live...

I understand the alure of digital guitar tones that cut through the mix in modern music. IMO this is the kind of tone that amp sim plugins have always done the best, whereas their tube tone is generally lacking. Why is this?

I tend to think of it a bit like brewing beer. If a brewer starts off making an IPA that is really bitter and then tries to move toward making other beers, I often find that their Stout really tastes like a Stout IPA. Their Amber tastes like an Amber IPA. They often have a hard time really moving away from what they first knew.

With Amp Sims I have found some tube tones that are ok, but they tend to feel similar to the beer- like a tube amp + some digital fuzz in the high end.

I've compared the actual frequency output of amplifiers to "similar" tones in Guitar Rig, for example, and there is a MASSIVE amount of information above 7kHz that Guitar Rig has, but that the amp doesn't. This makes me wonder... why, if you're trying to simulate an amp tone, would you produce frequencies in your emulation that a proper speaker cabinet can't reproduce? Sure, some acoustic guitar amps have tweaters added, but most of what we hear for classic HUGE guitar tone comes amps that feed cabinets like Marshall's models with four 10" or four 12" speakers. As such, I've had some success getting more pleasant tube tones out of amp sim software simply by rolling off the highs.

If you really want to get closer to a particular tone, you can "cheat" at this by getting it as close as you can with your amp sim, then taking a sample a recording of a guitar played through a real tube amp with a similar amount of drive/distortion, and capture the EQ curve in iZotope Ozone using the Infinite spectrum setting. Then, take a snapshot of your amp sim's output and use the matching EQ in Ozone (or a similar matching EQ) to move the amp sim plug more towards the overall tone of the real one. In Ozone there is a smoothing feature as well for this, and I find I generally get better results if I move the smoothing setting higher so that the matching EQ curve is more about broad strokes with tone than super small changes.

In the end I still always prefer the real amp sound, but this gets me closer if I don't have an amp (or a proper room) handy. Nonetheless I'm looking forward to TH2, as it will be another tool in my arsenal for at home. If nothing else, having added "playability" and realistic feedback should make it easier to record guitar using TH2 on location, then re-amp later when in a proper studio and get the proper tone.

Peace,

Tunes

My home studio is in one half of my bedroom. I can't isolate and mic up my amp properly to do it justice so for me modelers are a great compromise. I've been working a lot with the TH2 demo, and I find it to be as good, or better than Amplitube, Guitar rig or my HD500 (when going direct. The HD500/DT50 is really good). I haven't tried Revalver, but since TH2 comes with Sonar and includes the $99 upgrade...It seems like the best value.

Years back when I was studying A to D conversion I looked at a lot of sine waves etc...one of the things that struck me was the harmonic frequencies produced by tube/transformers vs. those produced by chips...the nature of the two realms is completely different and in terms of "musicality"...here's what I discovered...

A chip based frequency is normally a product of integers, math and therefore the general nature of it is to be "even" numbered...2,4,6,8,10 etc...

Whereas tubes and transformer generally are non-linear...the frequencies they produce end up being much more random and tend towards "odd" numbers...3, 5, 7 etc...

When you combine the frequencies with a root frequency an even numbered frequency sounds clinical/harsh/to linear and is not at all musical...

When you add the tube/tranX frequencies, because they were non-linear the odd number variation actually complemented the original frequency...much like adding a 3rd note to a root, or a 5th...if you add a second or fourth it is dissonant...etc...

So the tubes/transformers have always won out in sounding "musical" or pleasing, especially in a Western worldview where minors and thirds etc...are considered enjoyable...

Just a passing view...it made sense to me then...seems to make sense now...

tunekicker


I understand the alure of digital guitar tones that cut through the mix in modern music. IMO this is the kind of tone that amp sim plugins have always done the best, whereas their tube tone is generally lacking. Why is this?

I tend to think of it a bit like brewing beer. If a brewer starts off making an IPA that is really bitter and then tries to move toward making other beers, I often find that their Stout really tastes like a Stout IPA. Their Amber tastes like an Amber IPA. They often have a hard time really moving away from what they first knew.

With Amp Sims I have found some tube tones that are ok, but they tend to feel similar to the beer- like a tube amp + some digital fuzz in the high end.

I've compared the actual frequency output of amplifiers to "similar" tones in Guitar Rig, for example, and there is a MASSIVE amount of information above 7kHz that Guitar Rig has, but that the amp doesn't. This makes me wonder... why, if you're trying to simulate an amp tone, would you produce frequencies in your emulation that a proper speaker cabinet can't reproduce? Sure, some acoustic guitar amps have tweaters added, but most of what we hear for classic HUGE guitar tone comes amps that feed cabinets like Marshall's models with four 10" or four 12" speakers. As such, I've had some success getting more pleasant tube tones out of amp sim software simply by rolling off the highs.

If you really want to get closer to a particular tone, you can "cheat" at this by getting it as close as you can with your amp sim, then taking a sample a recording of a guitar played through a real tube amp with a similar amount of drive/distortion, and capture the EQ curve in iZotope Ozone using the Infinite spectrum setting. Then, take a snapshot of your amp sim's output and use the matching EQ in Ozone (or a similar matching EQ) to move the amp sim plug more towards the overall tone of the real one. In Ozone there is a smoothing feature as well for this, and I find I generally get better results if I move the smoothing setting higher so that the matching EQ curve is more about broad strokes with tone than super small changes.

In the end I still always prefer the real amp sound, but this gets me closer if I don't have an amp (or a proper room) handy. Nonetheless I'm looking forward to TH2, as it will be another tool in my arsenal for at home. If nothing else, having added "playability" and realistic feedback should make it easier to record guitar using TH2 on location, then re-amp later when in a proper studio and get the proper tone.

Peace,

Tunes

Strickly from a recording standpoint, I wonder how TH2 compares to one of the hardware based solutions like the Kemper.

I have a kemper and it rocks as hard as any amp!
I am sure it would blow away TH2.

not to mention that $2000 of amps pedals and cabinets should sound better than a $99 plugin.   As far as i can determine, when it comes down to electronic simulations (and samples) of instruments the only folks who say instrument A sound totally like an authentic original are folks who do not play instrument A..so whether that is strings, piano, ac. or elec. guitar it applies.. however the point is that for cheap money we can make really really good reproductions of great sounding instruments such that they at least sound realistic in the construct of a mix.. and that is a good thing.   I am certainly looking forward to putting the strat through this... i tried GR4 & 5 and wasnt particularly impressed.

I've played guitar for a long time. I have real gear... and a lot of it. Love my tone live, but recording wise, I don't feel like I lose much if anything using an Amp Sim in terms of final product. 

My band cut about six songs at a studio not too long ago, and I wasn't impressed with the guitar tone vs what I do at home with Amp Sims. 

I even find my self working on new tunes primarily in Amp Sims because the sounds inspire me.