Hi everyone,
I am new to this so please forgive my ignorance.  I purchased Sonar 3 a few years ago and have been using it for live performances to send bank and patch changes to all my hardware devices during performances.  I had used the Korg M1 keyboard for years and then the rack mountable version and now want to start using the software VST in SONAR.  I purchased the Korg Legacy Digital Edition last year and have not been able to use it live as yet.  The reason is that I am unable to get SONAR to do bank changes.  I record using MIDI all my bank and patch changes with my hardware keyboards and sound modules and then play them back and they work perfectly with this method, however I can’t use that method with the VST.  I did need to create instrument definitions for my Roland JV 880 rack module and was able to insert bank and patch changes with that module so I have an idea what needs to be done, but don’t know where to go for the Korg VST. 
 
The Tech support people at Korg said it isn't because of their software and SONAR says it isn't because of their software.  I am using the m-audio midi sport MIDI Interface and the Roland SONICCELL Sound Module as my Audio Interface with my Laptop.  To make a long story short.... after a year of tech support going back and forth between the two companies I have purchased SONAR 8, a brand new Vista 64 bit 4 GB Ram laptop and a cakewalk MIDI interface and done all the downloadable updates and still have not been able to move forward.  I followed all the directions for creating instrument definitions and when I try to insert a “bank/patch” change sonar does not see the 26 Banks (0-25) that I had created each with 100 or 50 sounds (patches) which I had to type in one at a time.  You can’t imagine what a pain that was. 
 
I just discovered with help of tech support the instrument definition file in program files for cakewalk and tech support looked at my definitions, edited them and sent them back to me with instructions on how to use them and the same thing is happening.  When I try to do a bank and patch change the program only sees one bank only and never changes from that bank. The patches change correctly to the number I request but not the bank!
[size=3 font="times new roman"] 
[size=3 font="times new roman"]One thing that makes me think that the problem is with SONAR is that when I use the Korg M1 software program in stand-alone mode, it goes to the correct bank and patch numbers when I use my m-audio keystation 49e and my m-audio Oxygen 49 controller.  I saw a solution on the user forum about the creation of instrument definitions and I will try to decipher what was written but it all looks like Greek to me as I am not very MIDI savy.
Thanks in advance for any help which would be most appreciated,
Best wishes,
paparich

I just discovered with help of tech support the instrument definition file in program files for cakewalk and tech support looked at my definitions, edited them and sent them back to me with instructions on how to use them and the same thing is happening.  When I try to do a bank and patch change the program only sees one bank only and never changes from that bank. The patches change correctly to the number I request but not the bank!

So you have at least one channel mapped to the M1 in the Assign Instruments dialogue under Options > Instruments, and you have that channel forced on the MIDI track. You see patch names in the Patch drop-down, but you don't see bank names in the Bank drop-down?

Edit: I just looked at the Korg.ins file that comes with SONAR, and it only defines a single bank for the the M1 (with 100 patches, 0-99). Do you have an INS file for the M1 that defines multiple banks?


 

After you have followed through on brundlefly's question --

Your oxygen controller is set for the right formula for bank number. You could try recording your controller sending a bank and patch change onto a track of Sonar. Then you can look in the event list to see the way Sonar has recorded that event. And also convince yourself that Sonar can play that track back to the M1 software and make it change banks. From there we ought to be able reverse engineer the right setting for Sonar. Sonar knows at least three ways to code the bank select message, and it's necessary to match Sonar to each instrument. It's just one setting for the instrument and maybe twenty five edits for your banks.

The real "legacy" M1 doesn't support bank changes.

Bill B.

Hi Brundlefly,
That is correct.  There is only one instrument assigned to the M1 Software program.  You cannot use the M1 definition that Cakewalk provides because this is for the hardware keyboard or rack module.  The instrument definition for the software has to be created by the user.  I created the definition and there are 26 banks total (0-25) and each bank has either 50 or 100 patches.  The last four Banks are user banks i.e. user 22,23,24 & 25 in the software program.

Does the file have a section that looks something like this?

[Korg Legacy Collection M1]
Patch[0]=Korg Legacy Collection M1 Bank 0
Patch[1]=Korg Legacy Collection M1 Bank 1
Patch[2]=Korg Legacy Collection M1 Bank 2

…

Patch[25]=Korg Legacy Collection M1 Bank 25
Patch[asterisk]=Korg Legacy Collection M1 Bank 0 

If the Bank names show up, but the bank doesn't change, it is probably the Bank select method that needs to be changed, as Bill mentioned.

Edit: [asterisk] was interpreted as an HTML tag when the * was used. This is what determines the default bank.

Hi bvideo,
I actually recorded the bank changes as individual markers in Sonar From Bank 0 thru 26. I also recorded the program changes as inidvidual markers in sonar on a track set up just for that purpose for the m-audio controller.  I can then just cut and paste the bank and patch changes as needed.  I verified that these were the correct messages by using the controller with the M1 Legacy Software program in stand alone mode and it did respond to the bank changes as well as the patch changes correctly.  Sonar is not seeing the different banks however. 
I do not know how to view the event editor so i will probably need help with that.  I have to go to work now so I will try to sign in at work to view any responses.
Again thankyou sooo very much for your repies. this is awesome!

Hello Brundlefly,
I was just able to get some free time at work and looked at the file using notepad.  Yes there is a section that looks something like what you asked, here is some of it…

; ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
.Instrument Definitions
 
[Korg M1 Legacy Collection Lance mod]
BankSelMethod=1
Patch[0]=Korg M1 Legacy Collection 0
Patch[1]=Korg M1 Legacy Collection 1
Patch[2]=Korg M1 Legacy Collection 2
..........
Patch[25]=Korg M1 Legacy Collection 25
Patch[asterisk]=General MIDI
 
[Generic (Patches 0..127)]
Patch[asterisk]=0..127
 
[Generic (Patches 1..128)]
Patch[asterisk]=1..128

Hey, I was wondering why you wrote the word asterisk out and now I know why... ha ha pretty funny..... 
I would like to point out that the Korg Legacy Collection specifies in the MIDI Implementation chart that the Bank Select Method is the “0” Method and when you read above I see that the tech support person “Lance” wrote the Bank Select Method as =”1” .  Could that be part of the problem and do you think I should change that and save it as “BankSelMethod=0”? 
Another thing I noticed when I select a bank and try to input the patch… the choices I get are only within the same bank and it doesn’t change to any other bank as stated in my original question posted.   But there is something strange about the way it displays the instrument choices in the drop down box.  The instruments are displayed in order up to number 49 i.e. from 0-49 because there happen to be 50 patches in that bank.  However number fifty all the way up to number 99 are displayed as the final instrument seen (the one that was number 49) and then after 99 the numbers are displayed with no name after them up to 127.  I asked the people in tech support about this and they had no answer. 


 I had a screen capture picture of what I see but I can't figure out how to paste it in this forum so you could see what I am talking about.

If you look at the place in SONAR where the instrument definitions are input the dialog box on the left under Define Instruments and Names … the first entry is “*=General MIDI” .   Now why would that be the first entry and not simply the list as written in my original naming sequence starting with Bank 0 etc.  It seems like it should not belong here.
I have tried to delete that entry and it is impossible to delete it as the software doesn’t permit it to be deleted.  As I am sure you know by now I don’t know enough about computer programming to know whether this is a necessary entry but it does seem strange and might explain the appearance of the drop down box.
 
Thanks in advance again and sorry about the long winded explantations but its the only way I can explain my problem
Yours Truly,
paparich 
 

I would like to point out that the Korg Legacy Collection specifies in the MIDI Implementation chart that the Bank Select Method is the “0” Method and when you read above I see that the tech support person “Lance” wrote the Bank Select Method as =”1” .  Could that be part of the problem and do you think I should change that and save it as “BankSelMethod=0”? 

I would absolutely give this a try. If Korg says the method is 0, I'd trust them. Just rename the original file as a backup, and play with a copy. You can;t really break anythingsserious with  an INS file. It's been a while since I worked with this stuff, and I've never owned any Korg hardware/software so I've forgotten what all the differences are in the bank select methods - mostly related to how banks are numbered, but also how the message is sent (what controller number is used, etc.) IIRC.

Fixing the bank select method may clear up other numbeirng anomalies. As far as the General MIDI bank thing goes. You can probably just kill that and put that asterisk in a copy of any bank definition line you want, and it will become the default.

Sorry I don't have more time to give better info.

paparich,
It would be a good idea to make a backup copy of your Master.ins file now.

First, about the patch numbers. The M1 only used patch numbers 00-99, separately for Internal(I) and Card (C). If you sent a patch change 100, it would switch to patch 0. For Sonar's purposes, it's fine for numbers 100-127 to be generic names. Secondly, if a bank (i.e. a memory card) had been formatted to hold only 50 patches, then that's probably what Korg is delivering in their software. Again, no problem if numbers 50-99 aren't labeled correctly. Although it might be interesting to see what is actually in those patch slots.

The line  Patch[asterisk]=General MIDI is harmless when it comes after all the real bank specifiers. If an unrecognized bank number is received, the patches will show as the General MIDI set.

If the bank select method is wrong, then the patch numbers in the .Instrument Definitions section are also wrong. I think if you change the bank select method from 1 to 0, you will have to change those patch numbers in the .Instrument Definitions section too. Here is where it might help to look at the event list. Select your captured patch changes track and menu: View->Event List to examine the bank numbers there. Unless you can decode what is happening in the event list, you might have to go back to the Legacy Collection MIDI chart to see how the bank number is coded (MSB, LSB) and then figure out how MSB and LSB figure into Sonar's Patch[<number>] scheme. You might for example find that 1 should be 128, 2 -> 256, etc (n -> 128*n).

Bill B.

Hi paparich (or anyone else who know what we're talking about here),
 
I came across your blog elsewhere and the forum post here on Cakewalk and I discovered the same problem (3 years after you did). I am using the M1 as a VSTi in Sonar X1 and can change the patch but not the bank (I use MIDI messages sent via MIDI interface, not the Sonar track setting stuff), but can do this in the M1 stand-alone version.
 
I was wondering if you have had any success any finding a workaround for this problem? I am playing in a cover band and currently using Sonar to send setup changes via MIDI messages to a multitimbral keyboard, two hardware synths (Roland JV-1080, Korg TR Rack), and the M1 VSTi. It all works great except for the M1 VST.
 
I have a band mate who is currently writing a "live performance" application (for PC/Windows 7) for me to use with our cover band that will eliminate this issue (as we really dislike the current apps out there plus the $$$ is too high for this kind of app IMHO) but I would still like to find a workaround/fix this for my non-band music composition.
 
Thanks for any helpful input,
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