I think most of he expanded users (me included) are just a bit nervous that no allowance wil be made for the difference between producer and expanded when deriving upgrade prices- like there is for say studio and producer. Is expanded a recognised version in the hierarchy? If no allowance is made I guess we have effectively paid for the 'advance' use of expanded features- some people will feel agreived by that others not...

Expanded is great... Now we can purchase extra items we know will work in Sonar inbetween upgrades. Items that surely will expand our use of this sequencer. Stuff that is tried and true. 

When VST was new, not every VST was working in every host. Not all parameters were remote controllable. Those things are here only for the last 3 years. And with Windows 8 in front of our door, compatability with a new OS is not guaranteed. When you buy a extra module from Sonar they will allso make sure it works.. 

That's my humble opinion. 

And for all those home musicians on a budget, there are many free VST's out there to make ends meet... But if you want a whole invironment wich simply works and works, the Sonar Expanded platform is a great way to get there.

Expanded is great... Now we can purchase extra items we know will work in Sonar inbetween upgrades. Items that surely will expand our use of this sequencer. Stuff that is tried and true. 

When VST was new, not every VST was working in every host. Not all parameters were remote controllable. Those things are here only for the last 3 years. And with Windows 8 in front of our door, compatability with a new OS is not guaranteed. When you buy a extra module from Sonar they will allso make sure it works.. 

That's my humble opinion. 

And for all those home musicians on a budget, there are many free VST's out there to make ends meet... But if you want a whole invironment wich simply works and works, the Sonar Expanded platform is a great way to get there.

CJaysMusic

sonny160


That's not fair!

Then don't upgrade. Its your choice. If you think something isn't fair, you as a consumer have the right not to purchase it.
 
Seriously, how do you think they finance the new versions? How do you think the Cakewalk employees get paid? Its a business. you don't expect to 4 new shiny tires for your car for free. Why expect to get a new program for free.
 
 

       

Imo it goes both ways if 2/3 of the people who post on your forum says I paid all of this money for this DAW and it still doesn't work right then why should anyone pay for a version that does not work right? I go to a ton of audio forums online talk to people who use all sorts of things and rather than the great things that Sonar does offer most people mainly talk about how it doesn't work properly. That to me is what makes it unfair imo. I'd have no problem paying for the next one presale if I thought I wasn't going to be buying a new set of bugs. I have a feeling I will be. 

xabiton, all daws have their problems...

1.  Reaper is lightweight, solid, hard to crash.  Has a fantastic audio engine, scripting ability, and can be customized beyond belief.  What's wrong with it?  The developers never put a single thought for, "ease of use, for people who just want to record and engineer and produce.  Reaper is so complex, and so ugly, and its workflow so horrifying, that even though its lightweight, fast, stable with a pristine engine..  I still like Sonar more...

2.  Pro-Tools is 32 bit--  Avid sliding toward bankruptcy.  Industry standard?  what standards, or industry is even left.  ( my tmz quality headline.. lol..  news @ 11, nuff said )

3.  Ableton Live, Logic, Studio One, Mutools, Orion...  People list problems with these daws all the time...  from lack of routing, or bugs, or lack of features, or as in the case with Logic, "Apple couldn't care less about this product anymore."  Infact, out of those, "Orion might be," the best in the bunch.


4.  Cubase/Nuendo..   It crashes.  A lot!!  If you don't know, you have never used.  Audio does drop out, its got latency issues.  Its workflow in 1990s.  Its never changed from being, "the virtual implementation of a hardware studio."

Magix Samplitude and Pyrimix..  They have issues I am sure..   But they cost quite a bit of $ so I haven't checked em out.


Then of course..  There is practically and endless amount of solutions to record audio on the computer..  everything from Saw Studio to Audacity, and everything in between....   Problems are everywhere.


So...  IMHO


Sonar's biggest problem is audio dropouts.  That is a complicated problem.  A person with system N might get way more dropouts than somebody with system Z.  There are so many variables causing audio dropouts.
Sonar may crash on some VST plugins..  That is only Cakewalk's fault, in terms of Rapture, or Z3ta, or other Cakewalk products.

Other than that...  There are a few known bugs..  but nothing that would prevent anybody from using Sonar and making a hit record!


Edit =  I'm at the magix website right now..  samplitude seems way cheaper than it use to be..  I dunno what is going on

Edit again =  There's a diff between Samplitude Pro and Samplitude Producer..   I dunno whatever..  I quite like Sonar, I'm learning it, using it..  Hopefully X2 is amazing, and has solid audio..   that's all.


I'm sure both Samplitude and Pyrimix are not without their problems...

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1762179
 

Linear Phase


xabiton, all daws have their problems...

1.  Reaper is lightweight, solid, hard to crash.  Has a fantastic audio engine, scripting ability, and can be customized beyond belief.  What's wrong with it?  The developers never put a single thought for, "ease of use, for people who just want to record and engineer and produce.  Reaper is so complex, and so ugly, and its workflow so horrifying, that even though its lightweight, fast, stable with a pristine engine..  I still like Sonar more...

2.  Pro-Tools is 32 bit--  Avid sliding toward bankruptcy.  Industry standard?  what standards, or industry is even left.  ( my tmz quality headline.. lol..  news @ 11, nuff said )

3.  Ableton Live, Logic, Studio One, Mutools, Orion...  People list problems with these daws all the time...  from lack of routing, or bugs, or lack of features, or as in the case with Logic, "Apple couldn't care less about this product anymore."  Infact, out of those, "Orion might be," the best in the bunch.


4.  Cubase/Nuendo..   It crashes.  A lot!!  If you don't know, you have never used.  Audio does drop out, its got latency issues.  Its workflow in 1990s.  Its never changed from being, "the virtual implementation of a hardware studio."

Magix Samplitude and Pyrimix..  They have issues I am sure..   But they cost quite a bit of $ so I haven't checked em out.


Then of course..  There is practically and endless amount of solutions to record audio on the computer..  everything from Saw Studio to Audacity, and everything in between....   Problems are everywhere.


So...  IMHO


Sonar's biggest problem is audio dropouts.  That is a complicated problem.  A person with system N might get way more dropouts than somebody with system Z.  There are so many variables causing audio dropouts.
Sonar may crash on some VST plugins..  That is only Cakewalk's fault, in terms of Rapture, or Z3ta, or other Cakewalk products.

Other than that...  There are a few known bugs..  but nothing that would prevent anybody from using Sonar and making a hit record!


Edit =  I'm at the magix website right now..  samplitude seems way cheaper than it use to be..  I dunno what is going on

Edit again =  There's a diff between Samplitude Pro and Samplitude Producer..   I dunno whatever..  I quite like Sonar, I'm learning it, using it..  Hopefully X2 is amazing, and has solid audio..   that's all.


I'm sure both Samplitude and Pyrimix are not without their problems...

I have been using Reaper for the past week or so for my audio editing and have not had any issues as far as workflow is concerned. Maybe its me but it seems pretty load and go until you start doing midi stuff. Sonar has it beat there but even then Sonar's strength is still in it being virtual tape machine ala Pro Tools than vs being everything like its trying to be. Idk though I have used Cubase in the past had SX 2 didn't have any stability or drop out problems. When I got Sonar Home Studio 4 in 2005 I have had 0 problems with the software i just wanted something more modern and when I got to X1 ran into a ton of problems. I am only so vocal because I really do like what Cakewalk is trying to do here but again I go to a ton of developer forums and only this one and the Cubase forum are regularly filled with more problems with the software than anything else. I go to the Reason or Live forums and its usually a hey how do I do this question (well unless there is a new version of Reason then its a hey this doesn't work for a month then there is a patch and its back to mostly positive) I am sorry if I come off as a jerk or a haggler but I am just passionate about how I feel about getting X1 right before moving on to X2. I have encountered so many problems this year with just Sonar that do not appear in other daws on other computers ever. I have been making music on a computer since 2001 on pretty much any computer I can get my hands on no problems. I never experienced an audio drop out except in Sonar. I don't get them in Live, Cubase, Reaper, Reason, just Sonar. That is why I react the way I do. That and because I have been spoiled by Reason's rock solid stability and the attitude of Propellerheads which is it better work at all costs. I feel Cakewalk gets it working for some people and then pass the bill. I call Customer Support and most of the time my problem is not resolved which again makes me think about switching DAWs. I don't want to especially because I am interested in Pro Channel which is the only reason why I am considering sticking around in the first place at this point. Sonar is the best DAW on paper but its hard to go onto any audio forum online and have a conversation about Sonar that does not go deep into all of the problems they have making it work right for them. I don't see that with other DAWs they may say it crashes a ton (live) I hate that it lacks vst support (Reason) the workflow is videogame like (FL studio) or the workflow is just plain silly (Reaper) but never flat out it just doesn't work a good 2 out of 3 replies except with Sonar. 
I think I come off as a Sonar basher which is not what I am trying to do I am hoping the Bakers read this and are taking this as constructive critique from someone who uses all sorts of tools and praise many of them because I love them and how they work. If you check out my YouTube channel Youtube.com/djkevwest you will see I praise a lot of stuff mostly plug ins I praise Live for its great focus on composing music even though their engineering features are not good at all. I praise Reason because if I didn't like vst plug ins I would probably only use it I did for years and got bored with not having options for variety before rack extensions. Just for example. I think Sonar can be the best DAW in the world but these problems have to be addressed before worrying about things like extra Pro Channel modules, adding more plug ins to Sonar, and promotions. If the software doesn't work right the word will spread and all that other fantastic stuff won't matter at all because at the end of the day all people will say about it in conversation is that Sonar just doesn't work. 

One last note I do agree that Sonar's biggest problem is the audio drop outs. It crashes sometimes for no reason at all sure but I don't think people expect a DAW to not crash but they do expect rock solid audio quality which not only relates to how it sounds but how it works. I would also like to see Cakewalk follow suit with Pro Tools in terms of focusing on doing one thing really well with Sonar. When it comes to the world of midi and running vsti I think Sonar has already lost that battle to tools like FL Studio, Live, Reason and Studio One. But where it can win is being a rock solid audio engineers tool. It already works really well for audio related tasks and it already has strengths there that anyway and from what i can tell most of the people who use it are guitar players anyway vs the guys who use vsts and are already using FL Studio or Logic. They lost that battle focus on a different market

”xabiton”

I have been using Reaper for the past week or so for my audio editing and have not had any issues as far as workflow is concerned.

 
How in depth does your audio editing get though?  Have you ever made ambient?  Does Reaper allow you to layer and bounce like Sonar?
 
I’ve had a Reaper license for three years..  I know nothing about the program.  That is how bad I find its workflow and difficulty.

Sonar.. I’ve had it for 2 months..  I’ve got it down.  Pretty much licked the learning curve..  Now I just need to practice my music, which is a never ending journey of learning..  but the, “brand new daw learning curve.”  I feel like, “ok I licked it.  Its done.”  Sonar is easy, breezy..  Its well thought out.  Its.. a piece of cake to work with.
 
 

Sonar has it beat there but even then Sonar's strength is still in it being virtual tape machine

 
In all seriousness bro.. It’s a DAW.. It’s a digital audio environment.  It is supposed to record audio and play it back.  Its not a software to control the stock market, and design skyscrapers.
 
But Sonar is so much more than a virtual tape machine.  It mixes in surround sound.  It loads movies, so you can write scores.  Its an audio playground..  You can slice, dice, edit, re-sequence like you would not believe. I can only guess that, “you are not making highly intricate and layered ambient projects, or scoring film…  No worries, neither am I, but I still know what Sonar can do.. 
 
Just because you do not use a feature, does not mean it is not there.  Remember, we are all on our own music journey, and we all have different levels of practice and ability.
 
 

when I got to X1 ran into a ton of problems.

 
It could be anything.  It could be a botched install, it could be your computer, it could be Sonar.  Who knows?  I am having a few problems..  Rapture, some audio dropouts ( but not too bad. )
 
I am not denying problems exist, but I do not feel like I am having more problems than ever.  Although.. I used Tracktion 3..  do you remember that?  OMFG  that was problems..  Cakewalk’s forum would be a mess if everybody was having problems like that..  what I do notice is a few users with problems..  nothing like Ableton Live 8!!!!
 
Ableton Live 8.. Remember?  The Ableton forums were a mess.
 
 

I am only so vocal because I really do like what Cakewalk is trying to do here but again I go to a ton of developer forums and only this one and the Cubase forum are regularly filled with more problems with the software than anything else.

 
Well.. I’m banned from KVR, and it’s a good thing too.  Nothing but the most angry, spiteful, childish, negative loosers on planet earth.  They complain about everything.
 
 
 

I go to the Reason or Live forums

 
Live 8 has been fixed.  People are not complaining anymore, that is true.
 
 

I come off as a jerk or a haggler

 
You are as welcome as anybody else to express their opinion.  I am just arguing for the good, instead of the bad.  I’m choosing to support Cakewalk, because I think they are doing a good job.  If I was having problems, I might feel just like you.  So I don’t think you are a jerk… 
 
 

I have been making music on a computer since 2001 on pretty much any computer I can get my hands on no problems. I never experienced an audio drop out except in Sonar.

 
I started in 2005.. so you only have 4 years on me.  I started playing guitar about 15 years ago though.. So I have been a musician for a good long while now.
 
I have had dropouts in Live, Cubase, Traktion, Reaper and Sonar.  None of them are flawless.  You might be forgetting, or you just got lucky.
 
 

I feel Cakewalk gets it working for some people and then pass the bill. I call Customer Support and most of the time my problem is not resolved which again makes me think about switching DAWs.

 
I feel like, “several companies throughout the economy are just trying to survive and maybe even grow right now.”
 
These are strange times we are living in.
 
 

Sonar is the best DAW on paper but its hard to go onto any audio forum online and have a conversation about Sonar that does not go deep into all of the problems they have making it work right for them.

 
I see plenty of people mentioning problems with Sonar.  Rarely do I see anybody give a list of specific and descriptive problems, or any clues more than, “problems.”  I see people with problems..  It could be Sonar..  It could be they have no clue, wtf they are doing, or how to use, “pro-grade music production software.”
 
 

I don't see that with other DAWs they may say it crashes a ton (live) I hate that it lacks vst support (Reason) the workflow is videogame like (FL studio) or the workflow is just plain silly (Reaper) but never flat out it just doesn't work a good 2 out of 3 replies except with Sonar.  

 
“Sonar doesn’t work well?”  I hear you.  At this point I need a list, and screenshots, and specific things inside Sonar that you believe are broken.
 
Aside from the few bugs we all know about.. Rapture, midi-clips, audio dropouts..
 
 

I think I come off as a Sonar basher

 
Don’t worry..  If you are having specific problems, and you can not get the program to work, than you have a right to be upset.  I agree…  but its hard to decipher what is not working, when we are not in your music room together.
 
 

I think Sonar can be the best DAW in the world but these problems have to be addressed

 
A lot of it could be your computer, could it not?  I think you told me about your setup before..  What is your setup?  Type of computer, audio card, OS, etc, etc?
 
 

before worrying about things like extra Pro Channel modules, adding more plug ins to Sonar, and promotions. If the software doesn't work right the word will spread and all that other fantastic stuff won't matter at all because at the end of the day all people will say about it in conversation is that Sonar just doesn't work.  

 
Part of Cakewalk’s business plan, seems to be, “offer value added.”  Sonar is definitely working right over here..  I’m enjoying, using, and I am little concerned about audio dropouts, but it hasn’t prevented me from finishing a track.  If X2 is gapless..  Than I am going to be so impressed..
 

One last note I do agree that Sonar's biggest problem is the audio drop outs. It crashes sometimes for no reason at all sure but I don't think people expect a DAW to not crash

Dropouts again..  ok, we agree.  Crashes?  I’ve had crashes in every single daw I have ever used.  I have seen them all crash.. random, or on occasion, or from a vst plugin.
 
 

but they do expect rock solid audio quality which not only relates to how it sounds but how it works.

Right, and a lot of times they are using these profession quality daws with:
1.    No real audio engineering education, or idea wtf they are doing.
2.    No proper setup of their computer system.. firewalls, antivirus, startup folder, background services, cheap or poor audio card..
3.    Not to mention all the folk who have crack installed.   Or have the wrong ram, or a slow hard disk, or an older computer, or no sse2.. etc, etc.
 
 
 

I would also like to see Cakewalk follow suit with Pro Tools in terms of focusing on doing one thing really well with Sonar.

Avid is going bankrupt.  They are on their last leg..  All they have is pro-tools..  but that also means all their plugins. 
 
Roland is building all the Cakewalk branded hardware..  Cakewalk is focusing on Sonar.. Ok, Cakewalk has a few vst plugins, and pro-channel modules..  but most of the stuff in Sonar has been developed over a very long time, or it was acquired via purchase of the company, or stuff like that.
 
 
 

When it comes to the world of midi and running vsti I think Sonar has already lost that battle to tools like FL Studio, Live, Reason and Studio One.

 
I’ve got a Live License..  Maybe you have not seen me post on Ableton.com.. but really bro, Live hasn’t got midi like Cubase, Logic, Digital Performer or Sonar.
Midi is more than programming notes in, “Ableton’s dinky piano roll.”
 
FLstudio is a niche, and Reason used to be a niche but now its coming into a full fledged daw.  We have to wait and see what Reason develops into for its versions 7, 8, and 9.
 
Studio One… hmm.. I am predicting development on that daw to eventually stop, and for it to be taken off the market.  Let’s see if I am right.  I don’t think Presonus is having the success people think they are.
 
 
 

But where it can win is being a rock solid audio engineers tool. It already works really well for audio related tasks and it already has strengths there that anyway and from what i can tell most of the people who use it are guitar players anyway vs the guys who use vsts and are already using FL Studio or Logic. They lost that battle focus on a different market 

 
Look at the Cakewalk blog, look at the names and credits..  People are using Sonar! http://blog.cakewalk.com/category/artist-news/cakewalk-pro-user-spotlight/
 
I am not being down on you bro.  I am just offering a different, and positive argument.  I understand you are having problems…
I don’t know what else to tell you.  Keep on trucking, and enjoy making music..  No matter what software you use!

2. No proper setup of their computer system.. firewalls, antivirus, startup folder, background services, cheap or poor audio card.. What is a start up folder and how do you handle your background services so that you get a better experience?