djwayne


Here's a guy that doesn't need written music to perform... watch this and tell me he's not a musician !!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Legz2nbxpmc
 
 
 
.

Gee DJWayne,
 
who ever said anything about musicians that can read music, needing it to perform ?.
 
Oh ... must have been you ?.
 
I think I understand where you're coming from ... you can't read music can you ?.
So you grasp at non-sensical arguments in order to defend the self proclaimed title of musiciam because you somehow feel it's threatened.
 
The fact of the matter is, great musicians who CAN read music, do NOT need it to perform, and any suggestion that they do is nonsense.
 
The other fact is, just as with lots of things besides music - if you can not only use the instruments, but also read and write their particular 'language' or 'notation', it give you a distinct advantage.
 
Just a couple of examples:
Language: A person who can speak fluent English, but can't read or write in English, is not a master in the language.
  It doesn't stop them being a speaker ... so long as they never need to read a speech :-)
 
Carpentry: A person who can swing a hammer and saw straighter than most, but can't read a plan or a ruler.
  It doesn't stop them making things, just as long as they never need to read a plan or measure something ... NOT a master carpenter.
 
I could go on, but really there is no point.
 
Did you ever consider that in the process of learning to read music, you'll actually learn a lot of other things that WILL make you a better, more capable musician, other than the fact of just being able to read/interpret the notes and timing off a sheet of paper ?.
 
Somehow, I doubt you've considered that.
It's true though ... just ask anyone who's done the lessons and has learned.
It should be common sense to understand that someone who can read and write the language of their craft or instrument is at a great advantage compared to if you took that ability away from them. It's a simple fact, and applies not only to music, but to a lot of things.
 
'nuf said'.
 
 
I'm off to hit the studio and make some music ... I wrote it down, but hey, I don't NEED the music in front of me to play it :-)
 
Cheers - Cliff
 

"So what would you call Bob ... a carpenter ?. I doubt it."
 
 
 
 
Believe whatever you want,  I'm done with your pompous insults.

CYA
 
 
 
 
 
.

vintagevibe

john6448


Notion is supposed to have an announcement "soon" about a release date for Notion 4. Like so many such situations, "soon" has become a very elastic term that stretches to accomodate pretty an entire calendar year.

But I own version 3, and hope to see 4 incorporate better VST and MIDI functionality. I too prefer score view, and if Notion does a good enough job of it I might find myself with fewer ties to Sonar. If Sonar is going to ignore notation, then notation users will have to ignore Sonar. I accept the fact that many Sonar users couldn't care less about notation. So be it.

I've been waiting for 2 1/2 years for Notion 3.  I'm not hopeful.  If it's not 64 bit and major work hasn't been done what's the point?

 
You mean for version 4? 3's been out a long time. The hope is that 4 will be 64 bit, and we dont' know what major has or hasn't been done. If it turns out to be a dud, then it is what it is, and will not be the solution either one of us hopes for. But that remains to be seen.

Re: the need to read music, I can see how MIDI and PRV represent a different language that have modified the culture of the musical world. No doubt "speaking" notation is better than not speaking it, precisely because of it's historical significance and continued relevance in the music world. But I would imagine that in the current environment there are plenty of people who are able to do adapt without it. And who knows whether classic notation will not eventually be overshadowed as time marches on.

djwayne


Sorry, but when I see a local musician on stage with his notebook showing him the chords to the songs which he should know, I just cringe. Excuse me while I turn the page !! You want me to play what song ?? Just a minute, let me look it up !!

It's really a crutch.
 
 

What? Nuts! How do you know that the non-reading musician on the same stage didn't sit for hours at home learning his parts from a score? Look at the various bands Zappa put together over the years...none of them played from a score onstage, but you can bet your ass they spend countless hours reading from Zappa's written parts in rehearsals. 


The same with, say, a classical guitarist. I can rustle up a repertoire of Bach pieces, even a couple of fugues, that I can perform without the music. But let me tell you it takes hours of practice and memorization with the score first. 


Also, it depends what kind of music you're playing. If you're improvising blues or jazz, you're not going to be reading your lines off of a page, because quite obviously improvisation is from the head. But if you're playing someone's jazz arrangement, what's the best way for the composer to communicate the parts to everyone? Why, written music of course. If you're playing hard rock or some other "popular" genre, there's no need to bring written music into it, because the parts are infinitely simpler to memorize. 


You seem to be prejudiced against written notation and people who use it. Don't be - it's just another form of communication. It's a tool. And it opens more doors than you can possibly imagine. Same with a study of music theory. Back when I was 21, a guitarist friend of mine mocked me for knowing all about harmony and chord construction. He said, music's not about numbers or symbols, it's about playing from the heart. Well 20 years later, he's still bashing out the same three chords and it sounds as boring as hell. What on earth could you have against people broadening their horizons and expanding their skill set? 

I learned to read music notation forty years ago and there are times when I use it on stage and times that I play by memory. It really depends on the genre of music I'm performing. Do you need to read notation to create and perform music? of course not. But I've always said to anyone who is critical of musicians using the skill of reading notation, that if it was possible to give these non believers excellent reading skills for one week and then took them away, they would beg to have it back. The thing is, once you see and hear what can be achieved they would never want to lose that ability. Some say readers are just playing the notes. How come none of us can recite Martin Luther Kings speech ' I have a Dream' and sound like him. To all you none readers, don't criticize what you can't see or hear. It doesn't mean its not there.

djwayne


"So what would you call Bob ... a carpenter ?. I doubt it."
 
 
 
 
Believe whatever you want,  I'm done with your pompous insults.

CYA

Hey Mr. DJWayne,

I never insulted you. And BTW, I'm not pompous either.
It's not a case of just "what I believe" either ... it's facts.


Now, see this reply from sharke ?...

Here's someone who knows what they're talking about, maybe you should take some notice.

Did I mention that even some of Santana's music (to me) is boring as hell ?.
It's true, he's done some really cool stuff, and some that I think is really very very boring.

Oh, and he (Santana) did learn to read music - don't know how well, or if he kept it up though.

Eric Clapton ... he learned to read too ... but he didn't practice and forgot how.
He should have kept up the practice.


I have to agree with sharke that you seem to have a prejudice against people who can read music, however that's your loss, not ours.

It seems to be a typical knee jerk reaction from those that feel inferior or inadequate, because they can't do the same.

It doesn't bother me what you think, or whether you can or can't read music, the simple facts are, those that learn to read, end up learning a LOT MORE as I stated above, and as per sharke's reply. It's not something that can be debated or argued, it is simply fact. And my guess is it's a fact you'll probably refuse to recognise, which is ultimately your loss, not mine or anyone elses.

sharke

djwayne


Sorry, but when I see a local musician on stage with his notebook showing him the chords to the songs which he should know, I just cringe. Excuse me while I turn the page !! You want me to play what song ?? Just a minute, let me look it up !!

It's really a crutch.

What? Nuts! How do you know that the non-reading musician on the same stage didn't sit for hours at home learning his parts from a score? Look at the various bands Zappa put together over the years...none of them played from a score onstage, but you can bet your ass they spend countless hours reading from Zappa's written parts in rehearsals. 


The same with, say, a classical guitarist. I can rustle up a repertoire of Bach pieces, even a couple of fugues, that I can perform without the music. But let me tell you it takes hours of practice and memorization with the score first. 


Also, it depends what kind of music you're playing. If you're improvising blues or jazz, you're not going to be reading your lines off of a page, because quite obviously improvisation is from the head. But if you're playing someone's jazz arrangement, what's the best way for the composer to communicate the parts to everyone? Why, written music of course. If you're playing hard rock or some other "popular" genre, there's no need to bring written music into it, because the parts are infinitely simpler to memorize. 


You seem to be prejudiced against written notation and people who use it. Don't be - it's just another form of communication. It's a tool. And it opens more doors than you can possibly imagine. Same with a study of music theory. Back when I was 21, a guitarist friend of mine mocked me for knowing all about harmony and chord construction. He said, music's not about numbers or symbols, it's about playing from the heart. Well 20 years later, he's still bashing out the same three chords and it sounds as boring as hell. What on earth could you have against people broadening their horizons and expanding their skill set? 

Thanks sharke dude, you took the words right out of my mouth :-)
(Nothing to do with Meatloaf :-)



Cheers - Cliff

Ya I'm prejudiced against written notation and I don't read music...that's why I have hundreds of music books here in my studio ?? You know maybe I should sell them because no matter how hard I try the music books never shows me how to play all the parts exactly. Yes they may give me a general idea of what the song is about, but notation is an art subject to the scribe's abilities. Many of the music scores I have are written all wrong and aren't even in the same key as the recording. Because of this, we've lost faith in musical scores, many times they are inaccurate.

The nice thing about midi is that you can get a very accurate score using a keyboard and recording the piece. Problem is though, I rarely need a musical score for working on my own music. I have Sonar X1, I have a printer, and I am already able to print out a basic score with lyrics, using X1. I've already done it, but have no need for it, so it's not a priority for me.

Just out of interest... How many people can read and play the music shown in piano roll view? Seen a few videos on youtube with some people making 'tutorials' for different songs using a prv or piano roll.. I can't adjust to it..  But thats just me I suppose..

Elffin


Just out of interest... How many people can read and play the music shown in piano roll view? Seen a few videos on youtube with some people making 'tutorials' for different songs using a prv or piano roll.. I can't adjust to it..  But thats just me I suppose..

   
 
 
I don't, but I generaly watch the midi notes to see what's happening in the song. Basically just for timing. I also pay very close attention to audio waveforms also for timing.