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2012/07/30 12:44:21
Platinum Samples
soens


Sorry, but I never could understand why so many VI drum sets have faint, dead and phony sounding cymbals.
I'm not knocking SD per se, just a general observation.
Cymbals are a critical part of any percussion set but so often fall way short of sounding believable.
 
Steve
 

Have you listened to our Session Drummer 3 kits?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJry74tb2_c


Rail
-----------------------------
www.platinumsamples.com
2012/07/30 12:51:26
Platinum Samples
my main beef is really with sample libraries as a whole


That's a pretty broad statement...  Have you listened to any of our sample libraries?


Here's a video of a snare triggered from 0 through 127 by one of our beta testers:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4OsCLqt2II


Perhaps you'd make a similar video using your modified SFZ file...?


Cheers,


Rail
-----------------------------
www.platinumsamples.com
2012/07/30 12:58:22
stevec
Just checked my bank account and seem to have more than I thought, perhaps I might treat my self but which one ?

 
And a fine question it is...   
 
The Platinum Samples demos for SD3 referenced above sound pretty good.
 
2012/07/30 13:01:15
chuckebaby
Getting back to what the op is saying.

i have noticed some differences in some of the hi hats that work off the beat.
there is so much going on they tend to get a little drowned out.
this isnt as much an issue for me because i do in fact make every beat i use but its something that should be made better in future releases.

ive actualt just started getting into sfz files as of late,i was a little ignorant to them before.
not that i have a big need for them but there is something to be said about a file that can be edited to change the timbre,tone,sustain of a sound and im all about customizing.
lets face it the closer we get to our music the more it becomes us and as artist i think thats are main goal in the creative process.
2012/07/31 03:41:32
SToons
Platinum Samples



my main beef is really with sample libraries as a whole


That's a pretty broad statement...  Have you listened to any of our sample libraries?


Here's a video of a snare triggered from 0 through 127 by one of our beta testers:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4OsCLqt2II


Perhaps you'd make a similar video using your modified SFZ file...?


Cheers,


Rail
-----------------------------
www.platinumsamples.com

Hi Rail. Good to hear from you again regarding the discussion at hand.
 
Broad statement maybe, and perhaps taken out of it's original context, but if we assume that the library (well, snare) in your video is flawless then we have one for two in terms of those being discussed. I think consumers can expect better than 50/50.
 
As you may recall, I did post a link to pictures of the snare samples I had remapped previously that showed the resulting values in dB to hits of different velocities. Several other issues come into play here though.
 
For one, I have completely re-edited my original work. Instead of adjusting the volume of layers I have now adjusted every sample individually with a volume=x.y command in the SFZ as was necessary, a reasonable investment in time as it required measuring the peak of all the samples in the kit. One discovery in doing so is that any reliable test would also require cycling a single hit enough times that every hit, not just one, from a single velocity layer is recorded. What if one "random" hit in a layer is 8dB louder than another in the same layer?
 
No offence intended but your video offers me little useful information and it's hard not to wonder what interest you would have in some sort of direct comparison to a small kit included as an extra with Sonar and edited by a user. I have already demonstrated the editing I did on the SSlate kit is likely an improvement and that was my goal. In regards to your video, the computer I use on the net is in no way connected to my working systems so I'll I can hear is a youtube video thru Dell laptop speakers. I suppose if I downloaded it and converted it and dragged it onto a memory stick I could make some comment based on a converted youtube file but really, who am I anyways? Pretty much nobody. With all due respect, the video itself simply doesn't give me a real feeling for how good the samples or kit may be in terms of real world use. It sounded good to me as far as listening on a laptop goes but unlke the pictures I posted there is no reasonable way to measure the response of the samples to velocity based on what I see/hear in the video. Sure, I can see the programmed velocities but that doesn't show the response, it only shows what you are asking it do.
 
I'm not sure how a video from me of the edited SFZ file is of any relevance to this discussion. Is this a competition? j/k... however...I did not record the samples nor was I responsible for their production in any way. I am not selling anything. I voluntarily invested a fair bit of time to make a kit that came included with Sonar a fair bit more functional, something I would have preferred not to do in the first place. For raw material I am at the disposal of a snare with six velocity levels, not sixteen or more. As I will detail in subsequent posts the raw samples were all over the place in terms of recorded sample volumes in a single velocity layer. I have zero ability to modify anything but the SFZ file in terms of sharing with the forum - I cannot modify the actual samples in any way since distribution of (altered) samples would be an issue of copyright infringement. People can use or not use my edited SFZ, I really don't care one way or the other, I have nothing to gain here. But, if this is a competition then we need a level playing field :-)
 
Now, if you care to send me a DVD with the exact set of samples you have used in the video then I'd be happy to give it a go and write an SFZ as well as posting a video, not that that would be of any use to anyone but I'd probably have some fun with it.
 
Beyond this, if you would like to discuss the issues beyond advertising your own libraries, something that I assume would go hand in hand with your presence here anyways, I would be honoured. I have a bunch of questions I'd love to ask you. As an example: how you prepare the samples in terms of normalization before dithering in regards to the S/N ratio on the quietest sample layer. Essentially, what is the difference in dB between the dither and the peak of the samples in the softest velocity layer? Not proprietary or in depth stuff like what mics, compressors etc. just basic facts like you might find in the product specs of a good electronics device. Understanding these types of questions gives me a better idea of how companies like yours are choosing to assemble their libraries. Having input from those such as yourself may clear up misconceptions that I have but again this is all on a voluntary basis and I have no expectations that you participate. In reality it's pretty easy for anyone to open the samples up in an editor and see what's going on anyways.
 
In the end I'd just like to disclose what I did to edit the SFZ, why I had to do it, and ultimately how it affects users in terms of editing samples/libraries to better suit their needs. I also have personal suggestions that I think might make some sample libraries better and more consistant, based on years of use, but hey, I'm not doing the actual recording so maybe my ideas would not be useful at all or are simply not practical from the perspective of recording as I have never untaken such a large task. Some good discussion with someone who has experience would probably sort that out.
 
Part of this issue also relates to choice of delivery. The SFZ format is good but cumbersome to edit and the opcodes listed are still not accurate. For example, the volume=  command is listed as having a max value of 6 db as volume=6. I can confirm that after testing dozens of samples the value is actually 24 as in volume=24. Depending on the needs of a consumer/user this may or may not be a deal breaker in terms of puchases. I, myself, might question buying any library in SD3 format at the moment. I prefer things I can use edit a little easier and consistantly, but that's just me.
2012/07/31 14:23:51
Platinum Samples
  
SToons

Hi Rail. Good to hear from you again regarding the discussion at hand.
 
Broad statement maybe, and perhaps taken out of it's original context, but if we assume that the library (well, snare) in your video is flawless then we have one for two in terms of those being discussed. I think consumers can expect better than 50/50.
No, that statement makes a conclusion that all libraries other than what you've experienced are faulty -- all our libraries have been beta tested by actual Session Drummer 3 users... 
For one, I have completely re-edited my original work. Instead of adjusting the volume of layers I have now adjusted every sample individually with a volume=x.y command in the SFZ as was necessary, a reasonable investment in time as it required measuring the peak of all the samples in the kit. One discovery in doing so is that any reliable test would also require cycling a single hit enough times that every hit, not just one, from a single velocity layer is recorded. What if one "random" hit in a layer is 8dB louder than another in the same layer? 
There should be no random hits in a layer -- if there are, the producer should have caught it during beta testing and replaced it (I know we did with at least one 'drag' articulation.   
No offence intended but your video offers me little useful information and it's hard not to wonder what interest you would have in some sort of direct comparison
The video was done by our tester to show that playing notes from 0 through 127:


a) play smoothly without any major gain jumps


and


b) have enough round robin samples not to sound repetitive (machine gun) when you trigger the same velocity range consecutively 


I can't imagine you can get similar results simply by changing the SFZ file... but I'd be curious to see what you did manage to achieve.

The only reason I responded was you made a blanket statement which implied that all content providers didn't know what they were doing... I quote: "my main beef is really with sample libraries as a whole"...  If you'd written something like "my main beef is really with some (or a lot of) sample libraries" I wouldn't have taken offense.   You can't come on here and tell everyone that my baby's ugly - especially if you've never seen my baby :)

how you prepare the samples in terms of normalization before dithering in regards to the S/N ratio on the quietest sample layer.
We never normalize -- that's just a terrible idea.. when you play an instrument in a room the room will talk differently depending on the volume of the instrument... so taking a loud snare hit and just gain changing it will not sound the same as hitting the snare softer.


Creating a sample library is as much art as it is science...  you can't just look at the numbers.. you have to use your ears and do extensive testing with folks who use these tools every day.


Cheers,


Rail
2012/07/31 15:57:47
Linear Phase
In reference to the image below 


 
IMHO, that peak is not proper.  You can check if you think I came up with that snare..  A lot of the Steven Slate Stuff has peaks like that..    I think it sounds nasty!

lets take an example Slipknot..  lol..   kinda heavier than zepelin imho..  you hear anything but the smoothing silkiest drum sound?  this is like totally compressed, and low fi, cause its, "myspace," and whatever...

http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/3444013

SToons man..  I like you, and I'm definitely on your side man..  even though I think we disagree here..  but imo, no way is Steven Slate, "a good producer."



C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Vstplugins\Session Drummer 3\Contents\Kits\2 - Snares\StevenSlate Snares\OldZepSnareZ1Hard1.flac





That peak is nasty..  its nasty looking, its horrible sounding! 


2012/07/31 18:39:09
bladetragic
Platinum Samples


  
SToons

Hi Rail. Good to hear from you again regarding the discussion at hand.

Broad statement maybe, and perhaps taken out of it's original context, but if we assume that the library (well, snare) in your video is flawless then we have one for two in terms of those being discussed. I think consumers can expect better than 50/50.
No, that statement makes a conclusion that all libraries other than what you've experienced are faulty -- all our libraries have been beta tested by actual Session Drummer 3 users... 
For one, I have completely re-edited my original work. Instead of adjusting the volume of layers I have now adjusted every sample individually with a volume=x.y command in the SFZ as was necessary, a reasonable investment in time as it required measuring the peak of all the samples in the kit. One discovery in doing so is that any reliable test would also require cycling a single hit enough times that every hit, not just one, from a single velocity layer is recorded. What if one "random" hit in a layer is 8dB louder than another in the same layer? 
There should be no random hits in a layer -- if there are, the producer should have caught it during beta testing and replaced it (I know we did with at least one 'drag' articulation.   
No offence intended but your video offers me little useful information and it's hard not to wonder what interest you would have in some sort of direct comparison
The video was done by our tester to show that playing notes from 0 through 127:


a) play smoothly without any major gain jumps


and


b) have enough round robin samples not to sound repetitive (machine gun) when you trigger the same velocity range consecutively 


I can't imagine you can get similar results simply by changing the SFZ file... but I'd be curious to see what you did manage to achieve.

The only reason I responded was you made a blanket statement which implied that all content providers didn't know what they were doing... I quote: "my main beef is really with sample libraries as a whole"...  If you'd written something like "my main beef is really with some (or a lot of) sample libraries" I wouldn't have taken offense.   You can't come on here and tell everyone that my baby's ugly - especially if you've never seen my baby :)

how you prepare the samples in terms of normalization before dithering in regards to the S/N ratio on the quietest sample layer.
We never normalize -- that's just a terrible idea.. when you play an instrument in a room the room will talk differently depending on the volume of the instrument... so taking a loud snare hit and just gain changing it will not sound the same as hitting the snare softer.


Creating a sample library is as much art as it is science...  you can't just look at the numbers.. you have to use your ears and do extensive testing with folks who use these tools every day.


Cheers,


Rail


Question.  Since you guys offer libraries for some of the other big drum vsti's, how do you feel about Session Drummer's more simplistic interface???  Do you feel there is a big disadvantage w/ not having control for things like room, bleed, snare top/bottom, etc???  Do you think you can still get the same results from SD3 in comparison to something like Superior or BFD given it's lack of some of these features???
2012/07/31 18:55:35
Platinum Samples
SD3 offers a great entry level product and is included with Sonar -- our samples play well inside the engine... but if you're looking for more control of the room balance or more Hihat articulations you'd want one of the other engines.  For what SD3 offers though, our samples play very well.  For a list of articulations in our SD3 kits download the manuals from the web pages.

It really depends on what you want, and how much you want to spend.  If you want greater flexibility you'll want one of the other options... but you'll have to pay more for that.  If you have something besides BFD and want a taste of our samples, this is an excellent option.  There is the special on BFD Eco running this month as another option to consider... 

All the SD3 demos were created using SD3. My personal opinion, and that expressed by our beta testers is that we've really elevated the SD3 engine and made it a much better product.

Cheers,

Rail


2012/08/01 01:34:35
bobguitkillerleft
Hey All,I 'm really into the Steve Ferrone Grooves that came with Andy Johns Pack,they're rock,but with a very unique,but ultra useable quality.
 I use it in combination with lots of others[MIDI Patterns]with Steven Slate 4,as I find it a great drum Soft Synth,but that being said,I still use Session Drummer3 too,and sometimes I use them BOTH at the same time.
This kind of flexibility is what amazes me with the whole Daw world[since my join date]and X1's browser,is an amazing thing,that I wonder if all,or any other daw programs are able to audition,and drag and drop,as seamlessly as X1 can?

This is kind of AN OPEN QUESTION,as I only have experience with X1,and I often wonder,what features other programs have,or DON'T HAVE,that X1 does,or doesn't have? THANKS!
Cheers
Bob
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