• SONAR
  • Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions? (p.5)
2017/10/02 03:46:46
SonicExplorer
LoL   Ok, I like a joke as much as anybody but the latest findings indicate I was indeed hearing a difference after all.  I had chalked the existence of drum hits up to the fact LiveSynthPro doesn't work reliably with multi-core CPU's, but it must be more than because I am only using LSP on the kick and yet I'm hearing both kick AND snare hits in the phase reverse test.  While DFH Superior is the primary drum source I also use Sound Fonts for kicks sometimes.  Anyway, beyond that however, the original findings remain in place WRT the bass & guitar tracks - there is no readily "audible" difference but yet there appears to MAYBE be a difference in reality because the tracks are not perfectly flatlined.  So I'd really like to have you guys take a look & listen, if somebody would explain how to attach a short .WAV file to this thread.... ??
 
Sonic
2017/10/02 10:20:16
chuckebaby
SonicExplorer
LoL   Ok, I like a joke as much as anybody but..

 
Sorry that was my fault.
 
SonicExplorer
So I'd really like to have you guys take a look & listen, if somebody would explain how to attach a short .WAV file to this thread.... ??

You have a few options here Sonic.
 
1- You tube
2- Soundcloud
3- DropBox
 
Either of these will do but You tube is free for endless listens. SC and DB keeps a tally on data.
You will obviously want to keep both examples the same sample rate and bit rate.
Also make certain the volume and gain are the same.
Hope this helps.
 
2017/10/02 11:26:23
c5_convertible
If the audio is generated from a soft synth, then that may also be a reason there is a difference. Especially with drums, as they sometimes 'humanize' things. Meaning, small differences in performance every time, like a real drummer. If these are rendered tracks, imported into each version, then this does not apply. But, when generated in each sonar version, there might be a difference that causes the tracks not to 'flatline'. In superior drummer, there are some settings to tweak what it actually does, but changes in velocity and tempo are definitely on by default. 
Also, some effects (especially the ones that emulate vintage equipment) add some random element as well. 
 
While these will cause a null test to fail, it would not mean a lot of difference in sound...
 
 
2017/10/02 15:51:45
stxx
All these explanations.....  lol moot.   Null test - SILENCE means IDENTICAL and ZERO difference so issue is in your head somewhere or on your playback.... No other explanation needed
2017/10/02 16:03:22
pwalpwal
you can take possible dpe "efficiency changes" out of the equation by disabling it in both and trying
2017/10/02 16:36:52
drewfx1
c5_convertible
If the audio is generated from a soft synth, then that may also be a reason there is a difference. Especially with drums, as they sometimes 'humanize' things. Meaning, small differences in performance every time, like a real drummer. If these are rendered tracks, imported into each version, then this does not apply. But, when generated in each sonar version, there might be a difference that causes the tracks not to 'flatline'. In superior drummer, there are some settings to tweak what it actually does, but changes in velocity and tempo are definitely on by default. 
Also, some effects (especially the ones that emulate vintage equipment) add some random element as well. 
 
While these will cause a null test to fail, it would not mean a lot of difference in sound...
 
 




This is indeed a big problem and it occurs with many, many, many effects plugins (including things you wouldn't expect). And if they deliberately added some randomness it's obviously not unexpected that it should be audible. 
 
The way to determine it is happening is to export things twice without changing anything. Until you are nulling completely when exporting the exact same thing twice it is useless to try and test the impacts of changing something.
2017/10/02 21:19:28
chuckebaby
stxx
"so issue is in your head" - "No other explanation needed"

A little harsh, no ?
Imagine if everyone here used that as an answer ?
2017/10/03 03:05:29
whitejs
chuckebaby
stxx
"so issue is in your head" - "No other explanation needed"

A little harsh, no ?
Imagine if everyone here used that as an answer ?




Cogent comment, Chuck.  Right on time.
 
I find, also, that the humor-only comments are useless, as well (the tape-drive stuff).  This is deep stuff, actually, and probably over the heads of most of us in terms of knowing what a digital system really does with audio inputs/outputs/intermediate processing.  It deserves, I feel, careful thought and consideration.
 
I wish the braintrust at Cake would come in here and pitch their views.
2017/10/03 22:10:08
SonicExplorer
Thanks again guys for all the constructive input, this forum is just incredible.  
 
Nice catch on the drums...I have the humanize settings enabled in DFH Superior, so I suspect that is the culprit on the drum side.  I can investigate further, but for now, more importantly is the remaining tracks (such as guitar and bass).  I have been recording for longer than many people on the forum have probably been alive and struggled making the conversion from the big-studio analog days to the home DAW.  While I'm getting old and my hearing isn't 100% anymore, I am still able to detect very minor sound differences.  And something seems audibly different to my ears.  Especially given how sensitive I've always been to guitar distortion textures.  The digital audio world has struggled in that realm IMO so I'm always listening for how "real" the guitar tones are being captured & replicated.  And to my ears S6 is seems to be generating a slightly "softer" more realistic sounding tube amp distortion on playback.  Actually, as I said initially, the overall playback for all tracks in S6 seem to exhibit that same vibe.
 
I too really wish someone from Cakewalk would comment on this subject.  I realize S5 and S6 are older but maybe there is something interesting to be learned. Or maybe there is indeed some sort of difference on playback, if not also in the rendering.  Maybe inaudible differences using a NULL test can, in some instances, be audible in rendered tracks?  I'm simply not enough of an expert in this kind of digital minutiae.
 
Sonic
2017/10/04 04:21:43
Anderton
SonicExplorer
I have been recording for longer than many people on the forum have probably been alive

 
No worries, ever since Bob Moog died now I'm always the oldest guy in the room 
 
I too really wish someone from Cakewalk would comment on this subject.  I realize S5 and S6 are older but maybe there is something interesting to be learned. Or maybe there is indeed some sort of difference on playback, if not also in the rendering.  Maybe inaudible differences using a NULL test can, in some instances, be audible in rendered tracks?  I'm simply not enough of an expert in this kind of digital minutiae.

 
I think we're getting into "how many angels can dance on the head of an S5 pin."
 
I worked with Abner Spector, who produced "Sally Go Round the Roses" by the Jaynetts. Once he produced 75 vinyl masters of a song. He had to go away for a week. When he came back, he couldn't tell the difference between any of them.
 
All that matters is the emotional impact of the music on the listener.
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