slartabartfast

"Humanizing" works best when some actual, imperfect Human input is actually behind the track in the first place

It seems to be common to equate the subtle variations in timing and attack produced by a musician's interaction with his instrument as being due to "human error."

Hi, Startabartfast

I really like your post.  I too am a bit dismayed by the tendency to think that various computer apps and gizmos can actually "humanize" robotically produced data. 

That's precisely why I said that so-called "humanizing" happens best in our tracks when some actual human input is the driving force of those tracks in the first place.  When you actually play MIDI drums with your fingers on a keyboard or drum pads, you are much closer to what a drummer does than if you go straight to a quantized PRV grid and starting "inserting notes"--a phrase I wince at.

You used what I said as an example of what you think is a mistaken notion about the nature of "human error" but what's ironic is that you then wrote a post I completely agree with.

Top notch musicians who are experts with their particular instruments have excellent timing as one of their attributes.  Their intent is to be tightly locked into a beat, but what sets them apart is the ability to accomplish that accuracy at the same time that they introduce their own personal "groove" to the beat.

The results are that even when that kind of ideal musician is being conscientiously tight, none, exactly None of their notes will actually be perfectly, absolutely right on the 0.00 of the beat.  That's why the commonly used phrased "human error" is used - though it's not a fair one, because the thing being described isn't "error," it's the limits to how absolutely perfect a human can keep a beat - it's as simple as that.  But as you said, algorithms that attempt to create that kind of slightly random off-centeredness are too random, can't really create the organic randomness of a musician. 

To me it's always best to start our MIDI projects by interacting through some instrument, a keyboard, a wind controller, percussion pads.  We may do a lot of editing, but wisely guided editing can retain the original organic input.  And That, to me, is the "secret" of "humanizing" our tracks - simply start with human input in the first place!  It's working backwards to input notes on a grid, and then try to faux-humanize that robotic input.

Randy B.

The thing to remember is that you can accomplish a resonably good sounding drum track, and that it is not an impossibility using the tools available. If the rhythm track sounds a bit stiff, then swing it a small percentage, but don't process the whole track. Instead think about the song, and the best way to emphasize the various parts, and then apply swing to specific clips. Also think about the dynamics of the song, and perhaps in certain spots it is not the timing that is crucial, but maybe the accents, or an overall velocity increase to add some excitement.
 
Isn't that what a good drummer does? He/she might add a little feel to the parts that need it, play louder just before the chorus, slow down a bit during the solo. There might be some parts of the song that need a straight beat, and others that wake up when it swings. There are multiple techniques available, and as the composer (performer-producer) selectively applying them to add impact, emphasis, and emotion, in service of the song, is the driving concept. A successful production really is in the details, and if you have control over them and apply good taste it will be noticed.
 
Paul

Certainly alot can be accomplished drawing in your velocity curves in PRV.  You can solo out each instrument (kick,highhats, etc) if you wish, then go crazy with drawing curves at the bottom of the screen (I believe it's hotkey - C - to show the velocity pane at the bottom of the screen.)

The video posted below is not drum related..and..it's a little OT from your question but it is a horn sound played on keyboard using a ribbon controller to get that ultimate realism.  This video makes me drool ..(more than usual)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpU_OcpYAZM
Mike

Hello all,
 
So you get some perspective...a little about me:  I have been playing the drums for 29 years.  I have a BFA in Music Ed., so I have studied music theory, history, form and analysis, counterpoint, orchestration, blah, blah, blah.  I also play, but am nowhere near as good on, bass, guitar and keyboard.  I put out an album a few years back with me doing everything...writing, playing, singing (if you can call it that), recording, mixing, blah, blah, blah.  I have recorded, mixed and co-produced a few albums for others.   and most importantly...I LOVE MUSIC!
 
First off, I believe drums are a "support" instrument.  A good drummer, or drum programmer, will listen to what everyone else is doing and try to support it, through a complimentary groove, or accent it, with fills and, well, accents.  With this in mind, I like for the drums to go down last.  I'll lay down a basic drum machine beat, like kick on 1 and 3, snare on 2 and 4, and HH or ride playing the subdivisions; eighths, sixteenths, triplets, etc.  Once everyone else is down, now you can listen for things you want to compliment or accent with the drums.  If the situation is a rehearsed band, then the best choice is let them play all the rhythm tracks together and then dub in vocals and solos.
 
Second, the biggest turn offs with programmed drums are as follows:
 
Dynamics.  Not every hit on every drum and cymbal should be the same volume.  There needs to be dynamics.  For example,when programming a HH pattern in 1/8 notes, make 1,2,3, and 4 a little louder than the “ands”. In a 1/16 note tom fill, some hits should be louder than others, something musical and rhythmic. Samples.  I like to have 3 or 4 slightly (very slightly) different samples for each sound and then program them randomly so you don’t hear the same exact closed HH sound 8 or 16 times per measure.  This is very subtle but makes a huge difference in realism. A drummer with more than 4 limbs.  You can not play a fill on the toms while continuing to play 1/16 notes on the HH.  Imagine what a real drummer would have to do to play what you program. Samples with effects.  I prefer to use completely “dry” samples and then use buses and effects to complete the sound.  The same exact reverb, on the same sample, at the same volume = YUCK!

 
Third, fills.  Fills are something that leads you from one place to another.  From verse to chorus, from a loud section to a softer one, etc.  Let them breath with dynamics, creating tension and release.  Try not to step on anyone else…too much.
 
Lastly, No one will complain if you have a simple drum part.  Listen to a lot of Led Zep.  Even though Bonzo was an awesome drummer, most songs had a great groove with carefully placed fills and was not too busy.  Everyone will complain if it sounds like the drummer is “soloing” over the whole tune.
 
That’s enough for now.  Have fun and remember to LISTEN!

Handbanana


really my main issues are when alot of notes are being played close together (i.e. Blast Beat).

This could be a different issue. Your problem in this case could be with the drum sampler you are using. Ideally you should have something that uses a technique such as "round robin" where the same sample is not used for successive hits, avoiding the "machine gun" effect.

@Rbowser - Yeah I had alot more success using the pads on my Axiom 61 Pads, and it was alot less time consuming that this process, but being in the military I can't carry alot of equipment with me. I have been looking at some 25-key and simple pad setups to fit in my seabag. Ive got a cover im finishing up this weekend and I'll take all of these posts into consideration.

Butch - Outstanding to hear from a drummer in such detail.  Your list of gripes about MIDI drums makes sense, with good reminders to all of us keyboardists attempting to be our one-man-band drummers.  Thanks!

Handbanana - What a challenge!  Get a little NanoPad, or NanoKey to do double duty for drums and playing lines.  Those are so slim and small, would probably fit in your seabag. - Hey, where does the computer go--?  - It's great to hear about a soldier still determined to make music while serving his duty--Excellent!

Randy B.

Great info from Butch. I might add that (IMO) an easy way
to decide which drum notes to make louder/lower is to picture
which hand the drummer is using for that particular strike.
For example, a drummer's 'off' hand will naturally strike softer
than his 'on' hand. And the 'off' hand will be less accurate, as well.
So, when I'm programming drums, on a roll I might set the
velocities as such:

Hit 1 ('on' hand): 100
Hit 2 ('off' hand): 85
Hit 3 ('on' hand): 100 (or, maybe 98)
Hit 4 ('off' hand): 90
etc....

Subtle variations like this can make a fill come to life
and eliminate the 'machine gun' effect of having every
hit be at velocity 100.

Lotsa good tips here for you.

Another thing you can try (if you're "playing" your drums on a keyboard in realtime) and you're just dealing with midi instruments to start with, is to slow down the tempo, play your drum part, edit any obvious blunders and speed it back up to the proper tempo. Don't quantize anything if you can help it. If your tracks are already quantized, then you can try some of the other suggestions others have mentioned.

These plugins are very good as mentioned previously. They are affordable, easy to install and offer lots of options.

http://www.midi-plugins.de/

The same functions are a bit harder to find in Sonar and there are more adjustments inside Franks plugins.

The original post was about loosening up heavily quantised material. I have just finished a job making a whole lot of midi files sound good for a tribute show. I switched the sounds over from TTS 1 to very good sounding instruments both external and internal. I used Session Drummer 3 to do the drums and was very happy with the results. Except for the stiffness of the quantised drum parts. (no fault of Sonar or Session Drummer of course)

Frank's Humanize plugin does a lot to help this situiation. Firstly it is possible for computer generated randomness to be very human and musical. You just need to work out some parameters and set them accordingly. This plugin is not as simple as it looks. You must download the manual which is quite good and digest what it says about this.

I elected to adjust timing and velocity randomly. (there are other things that can be randomised too) As Butch points out both of these are necessary. I definately agree.  This can apply to a whole drum track but if you want to spilt a drum part into separate tracks for drum sounds then each of these plugins can be used on these tracks for greater control.

Timing will encompass an area either side of the actual beat. I found that 7 to 8 milliseconds either side can be good. Also the plugin does not necessarily place timing equally anywhere between say -8 and = 8 milliseconds. You can also tell the plugin to put a greater percentage of timing hits tighter in, say -3 to =3 for a different feel. Also there is a tendancy setting which allows you to specify if you want most hits ahead of the beat, or right on, or a bit after as well. This is very cool. I found settings which made the grooves absolutely swing like hell. Taking the settings too far can sound like a drummer having a bad day on too much drink!

If you get the opportunity, record a great drummer to a click and see what the variations in timing really are.  Also don't forget you can also record a great drummer, extract the groove and apply that to existing stiff midi drum parts. That can be done right now inside 8.5 Producer. I have done a bit of this but it is just slower compared to inserting a Frank plugin, tweaking up and sitting back and having a good listen. I had to get through quite a lot of material quickly.

The velocity randomness often works a treat as well. I found that many kicks with Session Drummer 3 responded very well in terms of level and sound quality to velocity variations. This setting can also get overdone then some notes just start jumping out too much, but back it off to very subtle lavel varations and you are away, it just sounds so natural. Every kick level from a live drummer would not be exactly the same. (Close though for a good drummer)