ORIGINAL: NYSR
...I think the program would explode in usefulness if they promoted the idea of third party styles and even released a better development kit for that purpose than the capability already built in.

Here, here! Same for BIAB.

jammer is BY FAR the best ...

I have BiaB 2006 and Onyx Arranger, and also tried Jammer 4 some years ago.

BiaB probably is the industry standard and the company is serious. However, the interface is not your usual Windows one as you know it m Sonar, for example. Also the styles tend to be somewhat jazz-like to me. Say if you find something supposed to be in Beatles style, it will sound like a jazz musician trying to play Beatles. There is some "accent" he can't get rid of when playing pop/rock. They guy who has done most of it has his roots in jazz, so I guess that explains it.

Onyx Arranger is much more of a Windows program. It reacts the way you expect and has standard menus etc. There is a load of styles for it, and it is easy to make your own, stealing from midi files. As far as I can see they came up with the idea of copying styles from midi files. Then BiaB implemented it too, but in their own clumpsy way... Sounds like I advocate Onyx Arranger, right? Well, the problem is there are bugs in the program and they haven't updated for 1 1/2 year, and the don't respond to 3 request for the same simple problem. Still, they keep selling it.

As to Jammer my impression was the styles sounded better than BiaB, more like pop/rock. However, there were very few styles then, a couple of hundred. Furtheremore they had inflated the number of styles by calling the smallest variation a style, like beginning, ends, A and B parts - all of which is considered part of a style in BiaB.

ORIGINAL: mudgel

A little more info on Jammer 6.
All the styles and musicians within each style are fully customisable and so give very faithful renditions of each instrument and how it might play its own part in an arrangement.

I ended up buying all the styles and there are about 3000 in all. Very complete. Download the demo and see for yourself.
regards,
Mike V.

i don't think it loses anything by not being a plug in

Jammer 6 is very good, you can now quickly build a style by adding/changing musicians from different styles.
The engine has also far more possibilities than BIAB, and I find the styles good. At least they help you a lot in creating some base tracks.

Now I don't agree about the plug part. I would love to see Jammer as an Mfx and VST-MIDI plug.

This is a subject I have a lot of interest in. I used to use both Jammer and BIAB years ago. Then I bought some expensive keyboards that did much of what those packages do - but in the hardware.

I think Jammer and BIAB are both good if you are looking to do wedding music, jazz or just as a scratch pad, but for serious projects that come my way I would not use either. Heck, I purchased a Technics KN7000 which is the end-all be-it-all of arranger keyboards (even better than Tyros 1 or 2) and the price shows it! Even THAT is not good enough. In the end, it depends on WHAT you are making music for. If it is for fun, then take your pick of jammer or BIAB. However, if you are making music for commercials, multimedia or anything broadcast or cinematic, you would get laughed out of the production.

Does anyone have any ideas on pro-grade arrangement software. My korg karma comes really close hardware-wise - and I have used it for many many pro productions, but I would love to see something more open ended EXACTLY like my Karma, but easier to use and program! I am looking at Stylus RMX because it looks as close as you can come to percussion and rhythmic backing/arranging for more of today's sound.

What do you think?

Mike

ORIGINAL: karmacomposer

This is a subject I have a lot of interest in. I used to use both Jammer and BIAB years ago. Then I bought some expensive keyboards that did much of what those packages do - but in the hardware.

I think Jammer and BIAB are both good if you are looking to do wedding music, jazz or just as a scratch pad, but for serious projects that come my way I would not use either. Heck, I purchased a Technics KN7000 which is the end-all be-it-all of arranger keyboards (even better than Tyros 1 or 2) and the price shows it! Even THAT is not good enough. In the end, it depends on WHAT you are making music for. If it is for fun, then take your pick of jammer or BIAB. However, if you are making music for commercials, multimedia or anything broadcast or cinematic, you would get laughed out of the production.

Does anyone have any ideas on pro-grade arrangement software. My korg karma comes really close hardware-wise - and I have used it for many many pro productions, but I would love to see something more open ended EXACTLY like my Karma, but easier to use and program! I am looking at Stylus RMX because it looks as close as you can come to percussion and rhythmic backing/arranging for more of today's sound.

What do you think?

Mike

First off, thanks for all the feedback, I didn't know it was such a hot topic.

Mike, with your comments, I would have to disagree. I had a Korg Karma and found that too was also limited. I have BIAB but not Jammer but I do not have the extra styles packs (for the life of me I don't know why they don't (BIAB) update the GUI though and get away from that Jazz feel to everything which I agree it does.

However, create some chords, add in Trilogy, BFD, real guitar, vocals, EWQLSO, or VSL and you will hardly be laughed out of productions houses, especially for television composer, they are lucky to make $5000 grand a week let alone the time it would take to bring in (both time and budgets) session players and/or orchestrations. TV requires quick turn around as do ADD houses. I scored a few trailers using a synth and Acid 4.0 or I think 3.0. So anything is possible in the right hands......

My point was wondering the differences. In addition, I would also like some sort of program or chord book for guitar that talks about alternative chords (inversions, progressions) as I understand it in piano (theory.harmony.counterpoint) and although guitar is my main instrument, I do not know TAB reading very well. So am also looking for something simple that would, (for example) if I have a song in "G" major, and use the I, V, IV (which is what everyone does G, D, C), lets says instead of "D" I could replace it with an alternative voicing that stays in the range of "D" and flows with the bassline.....

Any books or internet sources available? Think George Harrison and how well he would compliment, Paul and John's simple guitar structures.

I Just got the four sets of Musicians and Grooves for the Style Maker in Jammer, Now I have everything they sell for Jammer Professional 6. Now for some serious composition.

Another vote for BIAB. You can import midi files (many on the net) and create your own new styles by doing that, AND it has a decent vocal harmonizer (based on TC Helicon engine).

I sketch out a song and song structure with BIAB, then import to Sonar, delete the "twinky" sounding tracks and add drum loops, etc., so that it's eventually unrecognizable as having started with BIAB--but you DO end up keeping a lot of the stuff! (Maybe some drums, bass a lot of the time, strings, etc.)

Jerry

I find Jammer V6 (Latest) the best. I have used it since V2 and it is indispensible when it coms to fleshing out a piece and giving me ideas for accompaniament. when I'm done I export to MIDI and import into Sonar and go from there to really tweak it.

I am a hobbiest so its just fun for me but I can see how a serious composer could use this for speeding up the arrangement process especially if you can't play everything and or don't have access to a bunch of other live musicians.

regards,

Mike V

can sonar make a midi plugin like those(jammer,band in abox)?????????

can sonar make a midi plugin like those(jammer,band in abox)?????????

Well, we had JMT Orchestrator from ntonyx, but useless (for me).

Now I don't know why these other product never made it as an mfx or vst-midi plug.

I finaly ended creating my own tools.