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  • How to make a live mix that doesn't sound sterile... (p.2)
2013/11/21 08:49:31
gswitz
Ok... here's another mix. I've put the compressors back on, but lighter. I added more volume automation. The mix is a dB or 2 quieter than it was before (pushed down by the peaks).
 
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20131110_Vineyard_SJGDavid_28_Willing_Breverb.mp3
 
And here's an image of the first overly compressed track and the new lesser compressed track.
 
The purple track is the new lesser compressed version.
 

 
@GuitarHacker, this tune was the first after a break. One of the guitar players took the stage late after the other players had kicked in. Also, it was cold and getting colder during the day. The guitarists were having trouble with cold fingers in addition to their guitars adjusting to the temperature.
2013/11/21 09:04:43
Walt Collins
This last mix sounds even better, and definitely sounding more "live".  Nice work!  I might suggest some mix changes to push the "lead" vocal up a bit and drop the background vocals down a bit so they don't take over.  Particularly the woman's vocal seems a bit too loud to me.  But that's just personal preference.
2013/11/21 09:14:53
Guitarhacker
I can relate to cold outside gigs. 
 
A band I was in played a mid December chili cooking contest around mid morning of a cloudy, cold, windy day, on a flatbed so you were high enough to be up there in the breeze. We were actually wondering if it would be feasible to play with gloves on. We determined that is was not.... I do think the other guitarist cut the finger tips out of his gloves however..... I opted to keep my hands in my pockets as long as possible and between the tunes. Eyes watering from the wind, mic stands had to be braced, fingers freezing up and not much feeling in the tips past the halfway point in a given song... no, I recall that job as not much fun.  The best part was when the announcer came up to announce the winners of the contest..... we got a good 3 minutes to warm our hands.  Top it off by not making much money and that was not a good gig.
 
The mix sounds good, and the wave looks good either one actually. Neither looks over compressed. I like to have my waves looking like that.
 
It sounds pretty good.... a bit brighter than the first one I listened to.   All that would be needed would be to add audience sounds and you'd be certain this was live. I think this mix is so much better. Not too much could be done that would improve it at this point.... I think it's close or at the point that additional tweeking gets into the area where you would start to mess it up if you're not careful.  Nice audience sounds there at the end. A close listen to the intro, and one can hear people talking and such.
2013/11/21 09:23:10
Jeff Evans
To me the issue is in the lack of room sound around the guitars and the vocals especially. The voices are just too close and direct. Even outside there is some form of ambience. I would try setting up a convolution reverb with a nice tight space. Maybe a small club. The good thing about the direct recordings is you can do this. Add some ambience in later. The rooms would be tight spaces and not over noticeable. But just add it in and it will make it sound a little better. You could even get away with one reverb space and sent varying amounts of the sources into it. It really needs to be the sort of reverb you don't hear but if you turn it off you notice something has changed. Small rooms with low amounts of return level. Make sure you have decent levels going in and through your reverb chamber but small amounts being returned. Best signal to noise ratio that way and the reverb will sound more natural. It does not need to be long and obvious. If you can hear it, too much then.
 
The guitar sound is what it is. That direct electrical sound. There is some hardware that can change the direct sound from the DI into more acoustic and natural guitar sounds. There has to be a plugin somewhere that can do it! The best way to disguise the DI acoustic sound is to put it into a nice tight space too. It will make it sound a little more convincing. 
 
There might even be some outdoor reverb spaces. (tight ones best for this I would imagine) Try them but if not I would be going for a small club sound. Does not matter the recording started outside, it is where they end up and where you put them. (ambience wise) Early reflections on their own are effective for adding some depth. Bob Katz has mentioned that one. Maybe on guitars.
 
You don't compress on the individual tracks necessarily. I would leave them alone unless there are things jumping out. If not try some gentle compression on the voices as a whole on a separate buss. Balance of the voices is even more important too. Go for a mix that feels good rather than sounds good.
2013/11/21 11:27:59
gswitz
@Walt, trying to adjust the vocals as you suggeset.
 
@GuitarHacker, Thanks!! I've appreciated the guidance!
 
@Jeff, here's a mix with Perfect space on the vocals a touch...
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20131110_Vineyard_SJGDavid_28_Willing_VocalRoomReflect.mp3
Do you think too much? I used Perf Space blues club close impulse. 
Did you notice I've been trying hard to use the K-System. In the image above in the thread you can see me monitoring EBU meters. Gotta give you thanks for pushing me to it.
 
BTW, the first mix had a lot of reverb on it. The reverb was a perfect space outdoor reverb Dead Horse Point 30 feet.
2013/11/21 15:35:38
Jeff Evans
That sounds like it has come to life a bit for me. You could turn the reverb down a touch too and try altering the room. I find you can often shorten a room space by a tad. It is also good to run any reverb returns though some sort of EQ before returning to the mix. I would take out the bottom end of the reverb slightly on this. It can sometimes add too much low end to the sound.
 
The voices need a slightly different EQ for me. I would be adding some upper mids to punch them through a little more. The reverb (if it is post send) wil get louder once you EQ the vocals too. May have to readjust. (I like all reverbs being post send so any EQ changes are reflected in the reverb sound too)
 
At the start, one of those acoustic guitars sounds almost electronic or synthy or something. (lead sound?) Could be FX on or was that coming from the stage. I would have no effects on both the guitars as well. Run them without any compression too. Try and get the most dynamics out of the performance if you can too. That really adds to realism.
 
That is what so good about a live gig usually. Any live gig. The instruments are largely uncompressed and the most dynamic and snappy of performances can come out in a live situation. I don't use compressors much in a live situation either. The mix can start to sound too produced and compressed instead of snappy, punchy and dynamic.
 
In that live to studio mix you may find there are no compressors over any of these tracks and you may only need subtle and relaxed mastering compression only to just even things out nicely. That is the nice thing about well played and sung acoustic music, it should be a dream to mix.
 
Go for balance first, then EQ then compression (if needed, maybe avoid). Then I add in very slight touches of room sound to these things as a group usually.
 
Those waves look good too. Not too loud or too soft. What reference are you working at K wise. I like to do a lot of stuff at K -14. My mixer is calibrated for that. I find K-12 a little hot and you have to keep all the levels higher inside your system to achieve it. But K -14 seems to be easier to work at without anything coming too close to 0dB FS. And of course K -20 for that pristine, attack transient crisp sound. I would be tracking any live gig at K-20 as well in case the performers make loud sounds unexpectedly which they do.
 
 
 
 
 
 
2013/11/21 18:07:10
gswitz
Awesome, Jeff. I'm so grateful for your posts.
 
Ok, I've been using 14 as a reference. 12 is def too hot for my ears. I haven't really every tried 20. Next time I run sound at a gig tho I will. I've found I can use RMEs DigiCheck and save a bunch of level meters to get averages.
 
The guitar synthy sound is a guitar synth played early. It's on a separate track, but when he uses it, he steps back from the fixed guitar condenser mic on the mic stand.
 
I just video recorded a funeral and man ... the preacher went from 85 dB during prayers to 125 dB when he was preaching. That dude was rolling! It was a video tape (16 bit audio). I'm interested to hear how the built in mics handled the craziness.
 
I'm going to...
- turn off all EQ, compression, limiting and center all tracks
- remix trying to dial volume automation in as best as possible with vocals sent to one bus and guitars to the another
- re-set EQs to taste considering punching UP the mids (one of the guitarists asked for the vocal mids to be cut which I did for him)
- re-pan the tracks
- add a room verb lightly to the vocal bus
- add a room verb lightly to the guitar bus
- eq both verbs to cut lows
- send both buses to a 3rd verb bus and add a little overall verb
- send all to a master out and apply slight global compression
- play through tracks aiming for K14
 
I'll post results.
 
Thanks!!
 
 
 
2013/11/21 20:34:04
The Band19
"Yeah, those acoustic guitar jacks always sound terrible, IMO."
 
Oh but not always...
 
LR Baggs makes some excellent pickups for acoustic guitars. I have one in my James Goodall, I don't or "rarely" use it? But it sounds damn nice! It helps to have a hand made James Goodall Jumbo too ;-)
2013/11/21 21:03:16
gswitz
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20131110_Vineyard_SJGDavid_28_Willing_VerbByBus.mp3
 
I'm thinking the reverb still isn't right, but it's another step in the right direction, I think.
2013/11/22 15:54:13
theguitarplayer
This last mix sounds pretty good to me, so I'd run with it. Nice song.
 
Peace and Blessings, John
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