Built-in synth layering in SONAR would be really nice...   I hope MIDI workflows get some attention in 2016!
 
I downloaded v5 last week and gave it a go.  While it feels a bit better than earlier versions - I think the last time I really tried was v2 or 3 - it's still not on the same level as SONAR for my needs.    I guess everyone has priorities, and for me the feel of the UI is at or very near the top.     Same goes for S1 though; while it has some slick functionality (which I very much like) the UI/interaction just doesn't quite do it for me.  
 

Well,
 
5.1 was short lived. 5.11 pre is on the books with new fixes.
 
Should add or elaborate that a multi track clone is better for some functions than even the Reaper unitrack model. Both Reaper and Sonar can clone in the same manner, and the clone has a major advantage, and that is a pure parallel pathway.
 
Reaper is almost there the way things are designed, and the input from a keyboard is parallel to all vsti's when needed to overcome midi thru blocks, but there are a couple limitations. Biggest advantage is the speed and simplicity to set up 95 percent of your synth needs. Disadvantage is that beside the parallel input to the synths, any effects are in a series line down the signal path.
 
Everything can be dragged and dropped, moved further or nearer, but anything upstream of an effect it processed by that effect. Means for instance you have a piano and process it with reverb X. Then layer in strings after. Piano gets the effect. String does not. You now want to put reverb Y after the strings, and the strings get processed. Problem is that the piano is now picking up both reverbs, and no way native to get around this I know of. The routing in Reaper is about as magical as it is hard to comprehend, so there may be a way.
 
Parallel routing in this scenario would have the right reverbs after and only after the synth intended.
 
This is why I've been on a soapbox at times regarding Energy XT. As a single plugin on a single track, it creates the pure parallel drag and drop environment lacking in both Sonar and Reaper. The XT demo is functional but you can't save anything.
 
http://www.energy-xt.com/
 
All this said, would be interested to hear comments about Studio One 3. As far as I have seen, Studio One is the only DAW to offer pure parallel drag and drop native without resorting to third party plugins. My system is unfortunately 32 bit, so missing out on the good stuff.
 
John
 
 

JohnKenn
Well,
 
5.1 was short lived. 5.11 pre is on the books with new fixes.

That's not uncommon.  5.1 is still alive though.  There is no way to know how many things will get done in 5.11 pre before it becomes the release.
 
I have to say I really like Reapers update model.  Pres are publicly announced with the changes made and available for public testing/use.  Their model is truly continuous.

There is a lot of midi stuff that is hidden away, as with other stuff, and some people think it is not there, I stumble upon things every now and then, don't use it as much as I use to, but I do like to support them, they do a great job, and the value for money is probably second to none.

One of the beautiful things about Reaper is you can run it from a Flash
Drive.  Granted, it's not optimal.  But you can go to ANY PC and run 
it...you can't do that with any other DAW that I know of...

Not to dawg on you Larry, but that isn't something that matters to me.  However, the same portable install capability gives you the ability to install a copy for each hardware config you use.
 
 

JohnKenn
Kenny,
 
Thanks for calling me on this. Should be more responsible and back up idle claims with facts. Here’s my opinion. Also, like Bob said, it has been a good year for Sonar. It has been a good year for Reaper. Our tools are really getting good.
 
For audio processing, I can’t see any advantage in either program as far as plugging in and recording. It’s a tossup except maybe Reaper is a bit cleaner in the management of plugs and in the simpler consolidation of the track layout. The GUI is irritating to some, me included. There is the option of using the ver 4 interface which works well. There are a ton of elegant skins (and some not so elegant). Care has to be taken choosing a skin because some functions may be missing in the user created group.
 
The two big turnoffs to Reaper are the complexity or at times hidden nature of some of the functions, but these can be set to control keys (once you find the function...).
 
Biggest mindset shift is the lack of a midi or an audio track. This goes against all convention and just seems too heathen at first glance. Here is where the strength lies however.
 
The unisex track design did not come about clean at first and it caused brick wall failures in certain applications. These problems were only slowly worked out for years across several versions until it is in an efficient, solid working state at present.
 
An example of keyboard setup:
 
Double click to add a track. Choose the input, midi or audio. This defines what the track is working with, not the identity of the track itself. Because you have only one volume slider on a track, this controls the output. Note that in a dedicated midi or audio design, the function of the track volume may or may not work depending on whether the vsti responds to midi CC data, thus in Sonar we see that sometimes the track volume and pan modulates these functions and sometimes not, thus having to resort to the separate audio slider. This is not the fault of Sonar, but the loose protocols for vsti creation.
 
You got a track and want to add a synth. Drag it in, say a piano. You want reverb on the piano, drag it in. Then you want to have strings on top of the piano. Drag it in. Add some horns and a bass. Drag them in. Everything in series. Add final effects. The Reaper intensity knob for each synth added is the volume control for a synth and the wet/dry balance for an effect. Very handy.
 
Lax vst protocol also does not require midi thru, and since Reaper’s synth chains are in series, one synth can block the midi flow. Thus a routing option to parallel the data stream from the input so all synths play. It takes less than a minute to set up rich and complex sounds not requiring templates and cloning multiple tracks. There are advantages to multiple cloned tracks, but the Reaper model allows you to get to the task and have almost everything accomplished on a single track with a single volume control, very quickly.
 
Demo version is free without limitations. Keyboard players should download the program and experiment. After overcoming the initial mindset that the approach is just plain wrong, significant advantages quickly become apparent. Like said, Sonar and Reaper can communicate via Rewire tapping into the strengths of each. There are very few projects I can't accomplish with this setup.
 
John

Hello John ,
 
Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me 
After reading this , I need to reread this a few more times to get the whole gist of what you are saying .
 
Kenny
 

Guys,
 
Something for you keyboard guys to try in Reaper. Can also be done in Sonar with a few extra steps using the free Reaper vst plugins, specifically ReaControlMidi.
 
ReaControlMidi plug is a complete attack of genius. The concept was so simple, it escaped the radar while everyone else was chasing a hi tech resampling solution. All other DAW’s, all other plugins try to deal with this function in a substandard approach with substandard results.
 
Talking keyboard pitch shift. Natural response is to evoke Elastique or whatever to resample and drift the pitch in cents.
 
ReaControlMidi relies on shifting cents and increments of cents by fixed resets of the normal pitch wheel. Nobody thought of this before. All other pitch shift devices rely on resampling, which introduces the two flaws of latency and resampling artifacts.
 
The Reaper plug gives no latency, no artifacts, and thus nothing can be delivered anywhere that is cleaner. Has to be heard to be appreciated. Here’s an example you can set up easily. Proof is in the hearing and I can confidently rest my case beyond any backlash.
 
Deals with getting an auditory expansion, chorus without modulation. Dynamite stuff.
 
Fire up Reaper and add any synth to a track. Insert ReaControlMidi. Drag a second instance of the same synth next in line. Make sure Enable is checked under the Control Change panel.
 
Play the synth and tweak the Pitch Wheel control to get the desired doubling effect on the second synth. With pianos, there is no method available anywhere to get such clean and pure detunes or honky tonk effects.
 
In Sonar this can still be done by creating a second track, set up the track for the same synth, inset ReaControlMidi before the synth on the second track, clone the midi file to track 2. Will do the same thing with a few more steps.
 
This is why, even if you look at Reaper as the irritating toy from perdition, would advise to get, download, use their incredible suite of free vst effects. What’s to lose, and nobody will tell.
 
John

That does depend on the synth responding to pitchwheel and not all do...

Correct, just like the issue with midi thru or not. Wish the specs for vst/vsti were written more defined than they are.