Hi,
 

sharke Yeah 200 Motels wasn't his finest moment.

 
I'm probably the only person that ever felt OK with that film.
 
And 10 years later, a whole slew of film makers in Europe went out of their way to use handheld cameras and psychedelic stuff and one Scandinavian film maker and a French film maker (today) have made their living off these things ... total color and what not distortions, that look like a serious lysergic acid trip ... something that not many folks can appreciate ... these are really harsh and weird sometimes and the strangeness quota is worse!
 
Seen within the context of film history, there were only two films that really destroyed the fabric of ideas and story within a film, in the Hollywood style. They were "Head" and "200 Motels", and both of these were aligned with Frank Zappa. Remember this is 1969 and 1970 ... and the idea of "trip" film was the "2001, A Space Odyssey" which was grossly over rated, and over blown, because no one had really seen the "personal side" of a trip like they did in that film.
 
Frank's idea, was to create a personal view that was more to his surrealistic view of things, than it was a meaningful, or articulate exploration of a psyche. To me this means ... trips are all trips, and the differences are strictly personal.
 
200 Motels is a personal trip, and when you take that view, the film is a fun, nutty, insane and ... ohh my gawd ... with music on top of it! We had seen things this way and that way ... but all of a sudden there are 2 and 3 disciplines mixed together, and that threw people off. It wasn't a concert film. It wasn't a movie per se. And it wasn't a TV show!  ... what was it? ... you can't define it, and I believe this was intentional. TOTALLY INTENTIONAL, by Frank.
 
Sadly, this was one of his greatest complaints about fans ... most wanted to hear his guitar ... and the arrangement and the serious music design under it all, regardless of project, film, or music, was forgotten ... it still bleeping is, Sharke! Because it isn't a hit song, or a pop song ... and we all have a hard time dealing with rock music as serious music ... it is very well done and serious music in its design, and the movie decided to take this the next step and DID ... however accidental it might have been, mind you!   The part that is hard to deal with is the vocals and the language, and this is the thing that makes us not enjoy a lot of his music. His lyrics, sometimes, leave a lot to be desired, but then ... so did Jean Genet and others, but you and I, are not sitting here upset with the color and description of the poop that our lady of flowers ... and this is the part that one does not see, or discuss. It is intentional and very "French" in its style and application, as "haute comedie", and this is something that this country  has a hard time with, because it is not like a TV set that gives you a laugh track with which to entrance you to believe something else.
 
Frank Zappa, is, in many ways, a vibrant example of the 50's literary scene that came out of literature, but he came out in music. Because in LA, and America, you can not do anything "serious" in music because of the movies, he has to make fun of the local scenes (and commercials -- all of which are in 200 Motels -- which is something that makes it VERY LOCAL, btw!) in order to get a bit of attention and I understand that. SO DO YOU. That he was able to translate this to film is IMPRESSIVE, since, at the time, Godard and Fellini, were the only film makers that did anything strange, weird and totally off kilter ... but Godard was making fun of film conventions and turning them upside down, and Fellini, was just satirizing all the Italian anything he could get his fingers on! Fat women, ugly make up to take on "stars" ... as an example. And later, he even satirized the pope as well as the studio machinery.   Too bad that he is in rock music, because it is the place where he will get the least exposure and appreciation, by an audience that is not used to seeing rock/pop music as an art form ... it's always seen as a hit, and not as "serious music", and I think this is the part that hurts things and the appreciation of the film even more. 
 
But it is a fantastic film to enjoy, and considering its time, when it was done, it was adventurous and way ahead of its time ... and even today, look at the replies ... do we even consider that option, and appreciate the artistic vision that created it?
 
I find that scary!

sharke
 I always liked the sound of Zappa's early 70's albums like One Size Fits All and Overnite Sensation - very warm and his guitar tone was at its absolute best.

a LOT of those guitar tones, were recorded with a pignose amplifier..
 

batsbrew
a LOT of those guitar tones, were recorded with a pignose amplifier..
 

Not surprised ... when everyone around him was going for the Marshal Stack and the loudness.

Can you write a single post without ranting about other forum members Pedro? LOL!

sharke
Can you write a single post without ranting about other forum members Pedro? LOL!

This has been cleaned up and such.
 
I (still) find it strange that you would concentrate on this and not on the details mentioned about the film, which are FAR more important and valuable as an art form.
 
I could easily say, as you can see, that you obviously, do not treat your own work as an art form, that is valuable enough to elevate it. I have spent my whole life trying to elevate rock music by everyone, because there is a lot of excellent work out there that far surpasses the majority of classical music being done today ... but that thought gets wasted ... because ... you think I'm putting you down, when in essence it is a challenge that you and all others have to get better (not on my account!) so that they also get the credit they DESERVE, including you, for your music!

Moshkito
Same thing here at the Coffee House ... everyone agrees to everything and the odd things get trashed out and people think that they are being insulted, and will not discuss the actual subject ... only their own individual crap.

This is what I'm talking about. There is no need for the constant passive-aggressive swipes at other forum members and then the victim posturing when people point it out. My first memory of your posts a few years ago were when you were taking constant passive-aggressive swipes at certain forum members for not wanting to give you one on one Sonar tuition, and whenever they told you to give it a rest you did the same "woe is me I can't say anything without being attacked" routine. It's like a constant theme which manages to find its way into many of your posts regardless of the subject. All I'm saying is, just leave it out, there's no need for it.

sharke

Moshkito
Same thing here at the Coffee House ... everyone agrees to everything and the odd things get trashed out and people think that they are being insulted, and will not discuss the actual subject ... only their own individual crap.

This is what I'm talking about. There is no need for the constant passive-aggressive swipes at other forum members and then the victim posturing when people point it out. My first memory of your posts a few years ago were when you were taking constant passive-aggressive swipes at certain forum members for not wanting to give you one on one Sonar tuition, and whenever they told you to give it a rest you did the same "woe is me I can't say anything without being attacked" routine. It's like a constant theme which manages to find its way into many of your posts regardless of the subject. All I'm saying is, just leave it out, there's no need for it.

(This part has been reworked and mostly removed.)

... you still have not discussed the film ... similar to many Zappa fans ... you want a guitar and ignore the music!
 
It's not about "one paragraph" ... it's about the whole thing, and you are not capable of seeing beyond one line! Very simple. And I don't mean to be derogatory, since the rest is highly complimentary to the work itself ... just not exactly enamored with fans whose outlook into the work is jaded ... and the one thing that Frank himself did not like and stopped playing the guitar many times to "conduct" his group!

I do get it, I was talking about that one paragraph specifically and how you seem to slip these passive aggressive swipes at other forum members in many of your posts. And even before that paragraph you were generalizing about and taking a swipe at Americans. I don't know why you can't just make an intellectual comment about art without making it sound like you think that everyone else is beneath you. It doesn't come across well.

Moshkito

batsbrew
a LOT of those guitar tones, were recorded with a pignose amplifier..
 

Not surprised ... when everyone around him was going for the Marshal Stack and the loudness.

...and a half cocked WAH.
 
Frankly... I still like Frank's music, especially things like Peaches en Regalia but the pornographic nature of some of the lyrics bother me now that I am older and have changed a bit. Especially albums like The Mothers at the Fillmore East, June 6 1971. I am so familiar with that album I didn't look it up, I'm pretty sure I got it right, I could probably sing along with the whole thing... Mud sh sh shaarrrrk!
I had "We're only in it for the Money" rom about the 10th grade, a good four years before I encountered any illicit substances, and I loved it. I know it word for word. Hot Rats, Chunga's Revenge, Waka Jawaka, The Grand Wazoo... oh and Just another band from LA... "rifa"... Billy The Mountain (Ethyl was a tree growing off of his shoulder)... those are my favorites.
 
I would probably be torn over liking or not liking this movie but I'll likely watch it. Flo and Eddie...
is Ansley Dunbar on this?
 
J

sharke
I do get it, I was talking about that one paragraph specifically and how you seem to slip these passive aggressive swipes at other forum members in many of your posts. And even before that paragraph you were generalizing about and taking a swipe at Americans. I don't know why you can't just make an intellectual comment about art without making it sound like you think that everyone else is beneath you. It doesn't come across well.

It really is no different than your comment about me ... !
 
There is nothing beneath me, no one, except dirt and some bones and bugs ... where you and I will meet someday in the future. Any other above and below is just the silliest and poor'est joke ... and you are confusing preferences, with ideas, with a film review, and discussion.
 
It might not come across well, but then ... neither do I get these nicely wrapped in whipping cream from some of you folks ... but I still love them, and it is meant in gest, not in insult ... which you do not see.