• Software
  • Why Native Instruments kinda sucks (p.2)
2015/10/01 10:49:15
TerraSin
I see a lot of the NI stuff like this: they are software developers. They are giving you the tools to work with and some minimal presets to get you started but they expect you to take the next step yourself either with your own sound design or buying professionally made presets.
 
Their sample stuff... I find to be mediocre at best. I think they saw this as well which is one reason they started bringing in other companies to supply new sample libraries that were better quality.
2015/10/01 11:15:51
Doktor Avalanche
MachineClaw
I think the lack of documentation or good documentation comes from buying a product outright slapping the NI name and brand on it and slapping it out the door.  dunno if NI really know how to use it or document some of the stuff they have.



In the past NI had some criticism for documentation. 
Nowadays, most NI manuals are superb, I'd buy them as a separate book if they were for sale but they are included. Check them out.
2015/10/01 11:39:32
arachnaut
I tend to explore and experiment with sound. I am a nerd and musical hobbyist, not a traditional musician. I grew up watching 1950's Sci-Fi and loved the spacey theremins and reverbs. My favorite sound track is from Forbidden Planet.
 
I have built hundreds of Reaktor synths and effects, about 70 or so are in the User Library.
 
I have been a Reaktor Beta Tester for some time and I made presets for Skanner and some of their other effects.
 
I'm am not allowed to mention Beta stuff or what goes on on those mailing lists, but I can tell you that there is a lot of discussion about direction and features and useability.
 
Reaktor is very difficult to learn to use well, and even casual connections require a bit of learning.
 
The factory products have been streamlined and optimized so heavily that they are unfathomable. You probably know that earlier Reaktor stuff used only what is now called 'Primary' modules and they were fairly easy to use (and still are), but a new level called Core was introduced with Reaktor 5 and it is a bit different. So now in Reaktor 6 there are three levels to Reaktor programming - the GUI panel layout, the Primary interfaces with the GUI and pre-processing for Core, and the Core DSP functions.  That's a lot to learn.
 
I have so many music products I can't really learn how to use them very well, even within the NI kingdom. So I played around with Rounds, Kontour, Polyplex, Prism, Lazerbass, and so on, but don't program them very much.
 
Molekular on the other hand I know fairly well and I use it and program it. But I agree it is a bit extreme, at least it is if you use it right.
 
Documentation has not been the strong point of many products and Reaktor documentation is quite massive in terms of pages and it is getting better. But it is still very hard to learn to use well.
 
Having said all this, I'll close by saying that I use Reaktor just about every day. It allows me to do whatever I can imagine and experiment with all sorts of wacky ideas. Any other tool like this (say, Max, for example), will probably require considerable learning effort as well. Whether they are easier or harder I don't know. The only other such tool I knew was CSound and I don't use it at all any more.
 
For me, Reaktor is not for conventional musical applications, it is experimental.
 
I recommend getting an extremely fast CPU if you use Reaktor - it is not multi-core aware, so get the fastest single-core speed you can.
 
 
2015/10/01 12:27:08
azslow3
sharke
"The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
 
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that. 
 

I do not have NI and I am not an expert in synths. But that explanation make sense for me, I can imagine what sound it is going to produce (without a prove). So it seems like you are right about targeted audience, I am working 20 years close to physics and I have quite some DSP background
2015/10/01 12:51:59
backwoods
N.I> seems to be a bit like Apple Logic. They just buy up whatever they can and then rebrand it as though they made it. It explains the lack of continuity with regards to manuals and style and quality of the bundled software. But with things like alicia keys piano and the softube effects it is a "no brainer"
2015/10/01 14:55:07
stevec
azslow3
sharke
"The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
 
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that. 
 

I do not have NI and I am not an expert in synths. But that explanation make sense for me, I can imagine what sound it is going to produce (without a prove). So it seems like you are right about targeted audience, I am working 20 years close to physics and I have quite some DSP background




Hmmm....  that does seem somewhat similar to additive synthesis.  Of course, getting a usable sound from it may be a different story.
2015/10/01 20:31:57
arlen2133
I bought into K9 a couple of years ago.  Got it because I wanted both Kontakt5 and Battery4.  Separately I would've paid more than if I just got the package.  Couldn't resist the $99 upgrade to K10 although I honestly don't think I've used any of it (yet).  My staple is the 3rd party samples I can load into Kontakt5.  Occassionally Absynth finds its way into a song (or two).  FM8 and Massive are actually on my template (along with Kontakt and Battery).  I usually go to them first before searching my other synths.  I haven't taken advantage of NI's community only having gone through it once or twice.  After reading here, I'll give it a second look.  
I usually use Groove 3 for learning how to use them and that has worked pretty well so far.  I have also seen a few UTube vids and some of them are pretty good as well.  
No.. Komplete isn't as complete as the "all inclusive go to" for some genres but as someone said, for the price getting the package is worth it.
2015/10/01 23:28:29
Magic Russ
Glyn Barnes
Absynth I am glad to have even though it only gets used occasionally. The mutate feature is the ultimate happy accident generator.

I have come up with a few cool sounds with the mutate function.  It would also be cool if they had a crossbreed function like Crystal does.
2015/10/01 23:49:41
Magic Russ
sharke
In addition to this, their presets are goddamn awful, let's face it. I have this beef with a lot of soft synth manufacturers but NI really seems to lead the pack in terms of unmusical, unusable presets that you're just never ever going to want to incorporate in a track, even if you're an EDM producer. I know presets are partly there to show off what the synth is capable of, but come on, you have to have a solid core of usable sounds that have stood the test of time and are useful as foundations to tweak into your own variations.

 
I don't agree, at least not for all of their synths.  For example on Monark, there are plenty of presets resembling classic tracks.  You've got a couple ELP ones, a "Follow You, Follow Me" one, a Funkadelic bass patch, and I think one for the saw lead from "Shine on You Crazy Diamond".
 
Likewise, I am impressed with some of the things they did with Massive.  In addition to all the EDM stuff the synth is known for, they have a few good patches for ambient sounds and a few good patches in the "Physical Modeling" category, which obviously aren't PM, but have a similar vibe.
 
On the other hand, I haven't heard the K11 instruments, so I can't comment on those.
 
 
2015/10/02 00:41:28
Danny Danzi
sharke
I've updated Komplete Ultimate religiously since Komplete 8, albeit always when it was on sale. When I first started out in music production and pretty much knew that it wasn't going to be a short lived hobby, I figured it was the most bang for my buck in terms of what you get, and to be honest, I still think it's great value. But recently certain niggling annoyances about their stuff as a whole have come to a head with me. 
 
The problem I have with them in is their synth and effects products. Their sample libraries are great, I have no trouble with them. But so much of their synths and effects are just plain goofy, by which I mean stupidly over-complicated and terribly documented. The upshot is that unless you have a phd in physics you're very unlikely to understand what in the hell is going on, and you're never going to fully master them. 
 
In addition to this, their presets are goddamn awful, let's face it. I have this beef with a lot of soft synth manufacturers but NI really seems to lead the pack in terms of unmusical, unusable presets that you're just never ever going to want to incorporate in a track, even if you're an EDM producer. I know presets are partly there to show off what the synth is capable of, but come on, you have to have a solid core of usable sounds that have stood the test of time and are useful as foundations to tweak into your own variations. Going through the presets on most NI synths I'm just irritated as hell, and this really became clear to me when I installed Komplete Ultimate 10 and took synths like Rounds and Kontour for a test spin. The presets are just horrible, 99% of them have no musical use whatsoever and seem to be a demonstration of some synth nerd's technical skills more than anything. 
 
Which I wouldn't mind if these synths were intuitive, but they're not. I mean come on, does anyone really understand Prism? It's a great sounding synth (and actually has a handful of half decent sounding presets) but the fact that Groove3 (or anyone else) has never released a video course on it speaks volumes. Nobody knows what in the hell is going on! I once sat down with the manual, determined that I'd learn how it works no matter how long it took me. After a couple of readings I still didn't understand. Same thing with Spark - it's like some convoluted science project with a manual written by someone who hates people and doesn't get out much. No video course for that either. You'd think Native Instruments would release a good set of videos to go along with these instruments, but no - the most you'll ever get out of them is a cheesy 2 minute video with some irritating dubstep music which leaves you none the wiser. 
 
The manuals are so bad I would consider it grounds for a refund. Take Molekular, the "revolutionary" new modular effect unit they rave so much about. It has a lot of wacky effect modules that you'll probably never, ever want to use in a track because they just don't seem to produce anything approaching a musical sound. So why would you ever want to chain 4 of them together, cross modulating everything in their path? Let's say you want to learn about the "Plagiarism" effect. Here's NI's explanation in the manual: 
 
"The input signal’s amplitude is measured using an envelope follower. The measured RMS data
is used to trigger 16 envelopes, which in turn are used to play back 16 “voices.” The voices
are commonly switched between bandpass, sine-wave, or pulse-wave modes. The pitch or center
frequency of each voice is generated from a base pitch plus per-voice offset that is read
from a look-up table with various interval sequences. For example, the 16 voices can be configured
to play the base pitch and its first 15 harmonics as sine waves. In pulse-wave mode,
the envelope is additionally used to modulate pulse width."
 
Totally understandable right? You totally know where you are from that. 
 
But this is how all of their manuals are written. If you want to learn Spark, or Kontour, or Rounds, that's the kind of blurb you're going to have to slog through - page after page of it. I consider myself reasonably intelligent and know the basics of synthesis and even like a challenge - but come on Native Instruments, have you ever thought about getting a normal, socially functioning person to write your manuals? 
 
Rounds is an interesting sounding synth but the interface seems badly designed and NOT conducive to creativity. Very convoluted workflow and functionality. Now FM8, that's a great synth with a great interface. Monark - can't go wrong with what are basically MiniMoog controls. But this is Native Instruments emulating classic synths that have already been designed for them, and giving them a modern interface. Their other stuff is starting to get on my nerves, and I'm starting to wonder why in the hell I'm paying for so much stuff which is ultimately unmusical and baffling. Rant over! I'll probably give it all another go tomorrow like I always do 
 
 




Well said Sharke, and I agree. I've complained several times that NI is and will always be my least favorite software synth. Not because of their sounds, but because of how complex they DON'T need to be, yet remain. Their presets are cpu hogs, the interface is a mess and I've had more crashes with their stuff than any plug I own. And....God help you if you own the full version of Kontakt. I was better off when I just had the player. Once I updated to the full version....I was overwhelmed with stuff that in my opinion, made little to no difference while forcing me to read up on a bunch of nothing.
 
Most software, I can really get into it without reading a bible. Ok, some stuff you need to read about to use it in depth. I get that and do it. But some of that NI stuff.....totally uncalled for and it needs to be simplified or removed. Their support is pretty bogus too. But...they do have some good libraries, which is why I keep them around.
 
-Danny
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