A boy named Sue no doubt.

ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo

A boy named Sue no doubt.

Would that not, in fact, make him a real toughguy?

Okay, I'm going to give Joe's little quote and reply trick a shot. Here goes:

ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo

So what you're saying is that you DON'T know when to admit you're wrong.

Umm...that would be a no. When I'm wrong you'll be the first to know.

I was the first to know. I even tried to point it out immediately in this thread. You said there was no session work for metal musicians. I gave examples, established my credentials, and tried to explain it to you since you are so far removed from the metal scene entirely. Instead of "hmmm, didn't know that" I got insults and smileys.

Okay, you answered my question. Thanks. Glad to know you have little to no clue about the state of the current music industry.

Good luck with that argument.

Luck? I already made more than enough examples. I know more than enough people that are making a decent living doing session and studio work, both in metal and other forms of music, with a metal background. Again, seems like it was something you didn't want to hear. I think that was the point you accused me of being a 15 year old. Good form, man.

To be honest, it's pointless now to debate this with a guy who considers Quiet Riot a metal band, but would not consider Dream Theater to be one. I think to make any progress with this you'd actually need to know the subject matter first.

When you know the subject matter come back and we'll talk about it. But keep up the fantasy. The world needs dreamers.

I know the subject matter, and from both sides of the argument. As I said, I was a jazz performance major in college. I know the material, the history, and the level of musicianship involved. I also know it's a great background to draw from for session and gig work. However, I also know metal, and know that many MANY metal musicians are JUST as highly demanded for the same types of work. I even listed examples, and noted that the top instructors in the country's LEADING college of JAZZ were in fact metal musicians. Again, I think you made a nice comment about how they must suck.

Thanks for the casually slung insults and name calling too, shows some amazing character.

Yeah, I have this nasty habit of calling a white washed fence, a white washed fence, a den of vipers, a den of vipers, and a liar, a liar. Can't imagine where I picked that up.

Well in this case, you're misinformed. You think you're calling a spade a spade, but the reality is that it's not even a deck of cards that you're looking at. I tried reason, I tried giving examples, and I tried arguing with you. Unfortunately, you return with insults and juvenile horse droppings. But then, I was the 15 year old, right Joe?

Amazing, how behavior like that on the interweb is simply "button-pushing", while on the streets it would more likely get you swung around by your mustache.

A nice trick if you can pull it off. But since metal is your thing, I'll assume you're too busy painting your nails to bother with little ole me.

Again, a sign of your age Joe. Metal musicians don't paint their nails. That was part of the glam-rock movement of the 80's, which ironically seems to be when you wrote metal off. Nowadays you're more likely to find emo, pop-punk, and retro rock bands sporting these fashions. Metal is still jeans and a t-shirt, last I looked. Unless you're dealing with black-metal, but that's an entirely different story there. Of course, you thought Quiet Riot was metal. Yup, that's just what metal currently sounds like. That's what all metal in the 80's sounded like. Because Joe Bravo said so. And then, Dream Theater is NOT metal. Nope. Not at all. Doesn't matter that the first album was released on a metal label. Joe Bravo likes it, so it cannot be metal.

Oh, but you put smiley faces! Obviously insults are A-OK if you put smiley faces, right?

They're supposed to make the insult worse, but apparently you can't take a hint.

I took the hint, Joe. I came back to this forum after several YEARS of absence because I thought the community here was excellent. I felt I could maybe help a few people, and learn a few things myself. Instead, I find an aging amateur hack guitarist insulting my very bread and butter. (yes, I listened to your tunes. For the resident champion of jazz, you sure lack the chops. Nice guitars, though.)

In honesty, I knew the demographic of this board before I even came back. I know the majority of this board is as far removed from the metal community as possible. However, this is my first experience seeing this kind of close-minded, antagonistic kind of CRAP. The worst part is, it's all a result of a simple effort to offer some helpful advice to an aspiring musician.

Well, Joe, You win. I have a terrible taste for this board after this whole experience. I came here expecting the same wonderful community of good people trying to learn from each others collections of knowledge and experience. Instead I find that you've already learned EXACTLY what you want, and outright refuse to modify or add to this knowledge base.

So, Joe, you win this one. Your superior skills of debate prevail. Instead of swimming upstream in this useless argument, I'm going to bow out.

And joe? Blow me.


(It's okay though, I put SMILEYS!!!!!!)

This whole thing is just too damned frustrating. I should have been the bigger man, and stopped posting days ago. But for some stupid reason, I thought I actually might be able to clue you in on some things you were unaware of. Unfortunately, there is NO cure for intentional ignorance.

Come up to Boston some time, Joe. I promise, I won't swing you around by your mustache. Instead, I'll walk you around. Introduce you to some of the most talented musicians I've ever seen. Bring you to meet some of the local label reps, and recording studio owners. I would gladly introduce you to this stuff first hand, because whether you deny it or not, it IS here. And a lot of other places too. Again, Whether you deny it or not, there is PLENTIFUL session work for the accomplished metal musician. I would GLADLY show you.

Or, you can just keep on denying it. That's fine too. It's not like there would be much work for you in any of these places anyways.

And joe? Blow me.

Aren't there strict anti-solicitation rules on this board?

"I was the first to know. I even tried to point it out immediately in this thread. You said there was no session work for metal musicians. I gave examples, established my credentials, and tried to explain it to you since you are so far removed from the metal scene entirely. Instead of "hmmm, didn't know that" I got insults and smileys."

What you showed me was a line up of four guys who had played on just a couple of albums by other people. Being a guest on somebody's record is not the same as being a studio musician at all. The two have nothing to do with each other. Further, the musician will focused on was not a musician at all but a drummer, and even he had only played on 8 recordings as a guest. A studio musician can play on eight recordings in any given week easily.

"Luck? I already made more than enough examples. I know more than enough people that are making a decent living doing session and studio work, both in metal and other forms of music, with a metal background."

And yet you haven't named a single one, and I doubt that you ever will. Nobody is gonna hire a metal head to do serious work. As I pointed out while you were sleeping, metal only uses basic major and minor chords. Any producer is going to look at a guy with a background like that and laugh. It would be the equivalent of hiring someone who only has experience building backyard decks to build a sky scraper.

"I think that was the point you accused me of being a 15 year old."

Only a kid would say something that ridiculous. No adult in his/her right mind is going to say that metal heads make great session players. There's never been one in the history of music to the best of my knowledge and you have yet to name any.

"As I said, I was a jazz performance major in college."

Prove it. I've got three albums of material to prove myself with, not to mention performances on other people's records. Where's yours?

"I also know metal, and know that many MANY metal musicians are JUST as highly demanded for the same types of work. I even listed examples, and noted that the top instructors in the country's LEADING college of JAZZ were in fact metal musicians."

You named a drummer, not a musician. And you still haven't named a single metal musician who went on to become an in demand studio musician. There simply are none.

"I tried reason, I tried giving examples, and I tried arguing with you. Unfortunately, you return with insults and juvenile horse droppings. But then, I was the 15 year old, right Joe?"

You tried the logic of a hero worshipping kid, so I called you on it plain and simple. And the insults as I recall started with you—not me. If you can't take it then don't start it. How hard a concept is that?

"Again, a sign of your age Joe. Metal musicians don't paint their nails. That was part of the glam-rock movement of the 80's, which ironically seems to be when you wrote metal off."

Funny, I seem to remember glam rock being a thing of the 70's—Bowie, Reed, New York Dolls—not metal.

"Of course, you thought Quiet Riot was metal."

Uh, well that stupid "Come on Feel the Noise" did kind of fool me I guess and the rest of the world I suppose huh?

"And then, Dream Theater is NOT metal. Nope. Not at all."

I didn't say not at all. Sure they have a very hard edge on some songs that could be classified as stupid, uh, I mean metal. But they do so much more. The majority of what they do has it's roots in stuff like progressive rock and even fusion to a large degree.

"I find an aging amateur hack guitarist insulting my very bread and butter. (yes, I listened to your tunes. For the resident champion of jazz, you sure lack the chops. Nice guitars, though.)"

Liar. Oh but we're still waiting to hear yours aren't we? Tell you what kiddo. Let's both put up our best jazz oriented tune at garageband.com and see who gets the highest ratings. How bout it?

"However, this is my first experience seeing this kind of close-minded, antagonistic kind of CRAP. The worst part is, it's all a result of a simple effort to offer some helpful advice to an aspiring musician."

Any rebuttal by me started with antagonism by you. Like I said before, if you can't take it, don't start it.

"Well, Joe, You win. I have a terrible taste for this board after this whole experience. I came here expecting the same wonderful community of good people trying to learn from each others collections of knowledge and experience. Instead I find that you've already learned EXACTLY what you want, and outright refuse to modify or add to this knowledge base."

Funny, as I recall, you left before because you couldn't get along with people then either. Take your childish attitude and shove it hard and fast.

"Again, Whether you deny it or not, there is PLENTIFUL session work for the accomplished metal musician. I would GLADLY show you."

Same ole song and dance. Same ole lack of one single example.

"This whole thing is just too damned frustrating. I should have been the bigger man, and stopped posting days ago."

First you'd have to be grown up.

Oh, and playing the self-pity "I'm so hurt" card is a bit silly for a grown man, especially when you're so damned obvious abou it. It won't get you one ounce of respect from anybody.

ORIGINAL: ArrowHead

I came back to this forum after several YEARS of absence because I thought the community here was excellent. I felt I could maybe help a few people, and learn a few things myself.

still is , and you still can
the choice is up to you
just take the high road
it takes 2 to have an argument

I can't even tell what those two are arguing about. The last three pages seem to be nothing but nit-picking at each other over details of previous posts. Is there some substantive disagreement and if so does it have anything to do with the thread?

It would make these things easier to read if people could take their personal quarrels outside, or if the mods could split it off into another thread.

Cheers.

BTW,

This was your post to me that started the insults:

"You don't get out of your neck of the woods often, do you? While you spout your OPINION about the viability for metal, pop, and alternative musicians to get steady session and teaching work, I chuckle at the FACT that right now as we speak classes at Berklee School of Music with teachers like Jon Finn, Joe Stump, and Mike Mangini have waiting lists longer than any other faculty. But of course, according to you these guys aren't qualified, right?

"I think your opinions about musical genre are the same thing to me as nose and ear hair: simple but obvious signs of your aging.

"While I can safely say that I could competently sit in on one of your precious jazz sessions you keep mentioning as being lucrative and stable, I doubt you have the chops to step up and do a metal session. Your own portrayal of the need for well roundedness in the gigging musician only seems to show your own lack thereof."

So, well, gee, you'll have to pardon my taking offence at you.

Secondly, everything you said in that first paragraph pertaining to Berklee is incorrect.

Jon Finn – Berklee has him listed as, "Specialist in improvisation and rock guitar styles", not a jazz instructor.

If Joe Stump, and Mike Mangini were ever instructors there, they aren't "now as we speak".

Berklee Faculty:

• John Baboian
• Sergio Bellotti
• Ed Blomquist
• David Cowan
• Suzanne Davis
• Scott deOgburn
• Michael Farquharson
• Jon Finn
• Jeff Galindo
• Mick Goodrick
• Melissa Howe
• Mike Ihde
• Julien Kasper
• G. Andrew Maness
• Kevin McCluskey
• Joseph Mulholland
• Matthew Nicholl
• Jeff Perry
• Jack Pezanelli
• Steve Prosser
• Mark Shilansky
• James Smith
• John Stein
• Didi Stewart
• Robin Stone
• Jon Wheatley
• Ken Zambello

ORIGINAL: kennywtelejazz

just take the high road
it takes 2 to have an argument

but it only takes one douchebag to make a leisure activity unpleasant.

And I'm too used to being the only douchebag.


Funny, as I recall, you left before because you couldn't get along with people then either. Take your childish attitude and shove it hard and fast.

WTF is that?!?!?! Are you ****ed? My name is right there, click it and look at my whooooole post history. Do you pull everything out of your ass? I left the board when my band released our album, and went to go tour. Would you like to see the amazon link with release date? Really, I'm curious to find where you get this notion from, as it never happened.

"You named a drummer, not a musician. And you still haven't named a single metal musician who went on to become an in demand studio musician"

Look at a few of your trans-siberian orchestra albums. Google a few of the names. There's your single example. That's after already mentioning many others in this thread. You just don't want to listen. Why would you, you have no clue what any metal is beyond "basic major and minor chords".

"Liar. Oh but we're still waiting to hear yours aren't we? Tell you what kiddo. Let's both put up our best jazz oriented tune at garageband.com and see who gets the highest ratings. How bout it?"

are you kidding? WTF is wrong with you? Did you miss the part where I play metal? I'm recording and releasing albums, doing tours, and you want to compare garageband demos?

I'm not trying to have a contest, Joe. We could always play "Link the last album you released worldwide", but how does that prove whether or not a metal musician can earn money and find work? You dance around points, and I keep following you.

ORIGINAL: yep

I can't even tell what those two are arguing about. The last three pages seem to be nothing but nit-picking at each other over details of previous posts. Is there some substantive disagreement and if so does it have anything to do with the thread?

You're pretty much right, as usual. I got upset because Joe stated people playing metal need to get lucky to make a living in the music industry. Unfortunately, we seem to clash well enough to turn it into this whole stupid argument.