ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo

Sorry, no disrespect intended toward drummers. I just mean that they aren't playing or reading musical notes. They're reading timing notes. I wouldn't call that playing music, but playing percussion. I rather enjoy a good drummer. But I've never thought of them as being musicians (unless they play another instrument too).

Dang, Joe, are you serious?

PLEASE don't take me the wrong way, I don't want to get into an argument with you, but I MUST take exception to this.

Drummers ARE musicians. Sometimes, what a drummer does can be the hardest part in the band.

The word "Music" has a broad definition... and I think that "Rhythm" definitely falls under that definition. I have played with some truly good drummers, and I've played with some bad ones, and the good ones I've played with, some of them I would call far more accomplished "musicians" than a LOT of the guitarists, bass players, and keyboardists I've played with. A drummer that knows what he's doing is critical to making rock and roll, and I don't know, cuz I'm ignorant of jazz, but I'd imagine the same applies there. I've played with musically educated drummers who know all of their scales, basic harmony and chord building structures, and even some who know far more about theory than I EVER will. This makes them more competent and better drummers.

Then again, there are hack drummers, too. But the drums are just like anything else, there a true musicians who play them, and there are wannabees.

I just had to disagree with that statement there, Joe. No disrespect inended.

GG

Hey Joe, how are you doing?

I reepsect you tremendously, but you know you are preaching to the choir!!!!

I grew up during those times...Tommy had a house in lake havasu ....

I lived there briefly playing with a cat named skip....He purchased an L-5s from tommy

We would go to his house...There were guitar shapes everywhere.....

At the time, he even said he was one of the most recorded guitarist in music!!!!

WHen I saw Cobham @ The Birchmere in Alexandria, Va.. he had leland sklar on bass..

we talked afterwards and told me he had been on at least 900 albums!!!!! thats not sessions!!!! WOWWW!!!

And come on now, when you learn to read music in school, I think everyone learns about g-clefs and

doh rey me!!!!!

While reading a drum chart is based off length of notes, I still can tell What note is what on a standard sheet!!!!

The fact that I can't play it they way a guitarist or sax player or bassist or whomever, is because it wasn't the instrument of choice, so I am not as adept!!!! Doesn't mean I am not am musician!!!!

I also play the guitar...know most of the basic scales....but have nowhere near the proficiency of the drums!!!

I believe the minute anyone starts negative comments about styles, what someone plays as to regards to its importance,

you are putting yourself into a position of attack

You are a talented and repected musician, same as I , near the same age, remember, how it goes for the heavy cats out there, they started in jazz, went on to fusion and maybe even metal.... - not all mind you...

Thats understood!!!!

Tony McAlpine, Ingwie Malmsteen, John Petrucci, Al Dimeola, many clasically trained and many more were quite adept at jazz but wanted to stretch it to the next level... look at guys like Guthrie Govan, Andrea Quatrotone, Mattias Ecklund,
the aren't playing jazz anymore... they gravitated to metal/fusion!!!!!

The one thing I can say, I did the same, but as I got older, I decided to come back to my roots, my foundation, jazz!!!

I think everyone eventually comes back that "started" there....

Doesn't mean I can't or don't want to play fusion/metal, but I am older and its time for the young to carry the spotlight!!

They are all a part of the same....


And Half the musicians I play with only support themselves by music only... just local session work, gigs, students..no day job!!!!! they aren't playing metal either, mostly jingles for radio, movies, etc....

Peace my friend!!!

resultant spray of testosterone

Wrong imagery (that stuff comes only in very minute quantities in the body), but the exact root cause, yes.

(you should maybe look up what it does to striped hyenas, there it's the females that have it bigtime, and frankly they're even worse)

ORIGINAL: Roflcopter

testosterone... comes only in very minute quantities...

Not when guitar players get to talking jazz vs metal, it doesn't.

Cheers.

ORIGINAL: yep

ORIGINAL: Roflcopter
testosterone... comes only in very minute quantities...

Not when guitar players get to talking jazz vs metal, it doesn't.

... and the drummer's in the van bangin' both guitarists' girlfriends...

ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo

What the hell does having played metal parts in one orchestra have to to do with playing sessions for a living? Absoluetly stupid....

Sigh...you keep babbling on and on about how metal players and alternative rock players have no talent and would never cut it as session players...just look at the Jazz names doing session work...show me a metal player doing session work...yada yada yada.

The people who play metal and alternative or any other kind of rock professionaly don't need to do session work. They have their own bands and record their own work. You act as though the lack of metal session players is a sign that metal is irrellevant, when the fact is that they are doing their own thing, and don't need to make a living suckling at the teet of someone else's success and acting like that's what separates the men from the boys. I've heard of putting a positive spin on a negative, but you're getting ridiculous.

I see your list of session players as guys who, for one reason or another, couldn't cut it playing in bands and want work. The fact that they all play jazz somehow suggests to you that jazz is in bigger demand. No, it's just that there are few jazz bands making any kind of big money and a ton of jazz players who need work.

If metal went mostly the way of the dinosaur like jazz has (save for mostly the older crowd...not where the money is), there'd be tons of session metal players looking for work too.

But hey, it's your reality, and you're obviously going to percieve it however you want to percieve it.

Edit: I don't have anything against Jazz btw...I even own a few Jazz CDs, mostly old stuff. But even if they teach it in school, it's a niche market. They teach Classical in school too, but I haven't heard of an orchestra member with a bigscreen TV in the bathroom, I've never seen a New York Philharmonic T-shirt and I've never heard of a screaming fan flinging a pair of panties into anyone's Tuba. I guess it all depends on how you measure success. I can appreciate Jazz. I really can. I can also appreciate that alot of Jazz people are like pretentious twits who go to wine and cheese tasting parties and revel in their superior taste.

If Joe Stump, and Mike Mangini were ever instructors there, they aren't "now as we speak".

http://www.berklee.edu/faculty/detail.php?id=266&type=department&value=PR&skip=%20-%2038k

It's on the Berklee site!!!!

Getting Deep!!!!

Peace!!!!

ORIGINAL: PBLOXAM

If Joe Stump, and Mike Mangini were ever instructors there, they aren't "now as we speak".

http://www.berklee.edu/faculty/detail.php?id=266&type=department&value=PR&skip=%20-%2038k

It's on the Berklee site!!!!

Getting Deep!!!!

Peace!!!!

Here's Joe Stump, self-described "high-tech metal specialist":

http://www.berklee.edu/faculty/detail.php?id=427&type=last_name&value=stump&skip=0

First, to any drummers, I love listening to a good drummer. Always have. I'm Tony William's biggest fan. I've got most of Bill Bruford's albums. I was talking up Gary Husband and Rod Morganstein back before anybody else knew who they were. And I risked death threats when I mentioned on my YouTube channel a while back that I thought John Sferra was actually a better drummer than Phil Keaggy was a guitar player. But there's always been this old joke: "What do you call a guy that likes to hang out with musicians? A drummer." Hey I didn't write it! That's been around for as long as I can remember! I never think of percussionists as being inferior to the other guys in the band—just different. But if you want me to call him a musician for some reason, I don't mind. It ain't a big deal. Abracadabra you're a musician!

Yep... I love Dio.

Y'know, I played with a Christian Rock band, right after I played with a bar/dance/classic rock band for a few years, and some things in the music business started p'ing me off... all the travel and playig for drunks just got old, and I was burned out. I didn't touch the guitar for a long time.

Then I watched "Tenacious D in The Pick of Destiny", and all of it, but particularily Dio's appearance in that film, inspired me to pick up the guitar and Rock again.

I actually like Ronnie too. Speaking of Christian music and Dio, have you ever heard Kerry Livgren's (of Kansas fame) "Seeds of Change" album that DIO sang on? I thought that was a great one.

I grew up during those times...Tommy had a house in lake havasu ....

I lived there briefly playing with a cat named skip....He purchased an L-5s from tommy

We would go to his house...There were guitar shapes everywhere.....

At the time, he even said he was one of the most recorded guitarist in music!!!!

Some guys have all the luck. I would loved to have hung out with him for a day.

... and the drummer's in the van bangin' both guitarists' girlfriends...

Well that just makes me want to cry. Unfortunately it's true.

The people who play metal and alternative or any other kind of rock professionaly don't need to do session work.

I never said they did.

I've heard of putting a positive spin on a negative, but you're getting ridiculous.

I don't know how. I said the session musician field is dominated by jazz players. It is. I said jazz players have to know a ton more chords, progressions and harmony factors than do metal or alternative rock players. They do. And that the nature of what jazz players do makes them more diverse and better suited to the job of playing sessions. Also true. They bring a lot more knowledge to the table and that's all there is to it. Yes I've known of jazz guitarists who were lousy at playing rock (Tommy Tedesco for one, and he'd admit it), but by and large most jazz guys can do anything. I wish I knew half the chord progressions Ted Greene knew, or could improvise well over complex changes like Tal Farlow. And if I could play piano like Tatum I'd give up the guitar tomorrow. If I own a studio that does all kinds of music for everything from TV, records, and jingles in all kinds of styles, and I need a guitar player to do it all, a jazz man's resume looks awfully impressive next to that of a metal player. It's just unrealistic to think otherwise.

They didn't have Joe Stump listed among the list of faculty where I looked before. At any rate, I don't know what he's teaching there, but it appears that Berklee teaches all kinds of music, so just because he's teaching there doesn't mean he's teaching jazz (which is what was said). Sorry I missed him though. My bad.

See, now you have a far more modest tone (now you're saying you like Dio?). When you put it consisely and politely like that, it's as though you don't think you're above everyone else, which was hard to think earlier when you were writing things like, for example:

ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo
No, they certainly are not, which is why they aren't doing it. You can bet they aren't teaching anything but metal to other idiots.

It was as though you think the metal musician's work has no merit, and of course, any Band's work that sells, regardless of the players' technical capabilities, has merit in that at least the buying public is paying to have something with their names on it.

But I guess I can see your point. Could be a band needs a jazzy solo, could be Kellogs needs a pop/rock guitar piece for a cornflakes commercial, and most metal guitarists probably focus on mastering metal guitar. So a jazz-playing session player is more commercially viable in a typical session environment. I can see that. I don't think the metal guitarists are "idiots" though.