I'm gonna keep sitting out on this one. Ironically, while I was at work it seems some of the more level headed people are actually GETTING THROUGH to Joe.

One thing further though, about the Trans Siberian Orchestra. I'm sure you've all heard of it.

The Trans Siberian Orchestra was a concept completely based upon a single song written, arranged, and recorded by the thrash metal band Savatage. It was on the album "Dead Winter Dead", and the song was called "Christmas Eve, Sarajevo". Look it up, you'll see that the original recording and composition definitely outdates the original TSO release of the same song. Jon Oliva, founder and writer of Savatage, had worked closely with his producer on this track. The producer saw the opportunity of the piece, and put together the TSO concept. He hires SESSION MUSICIANS including the likes of Alex Skolnick (Testament, Savatage), Chris Cafferty (Savatage), Dave Wacholz (sp?) (Savatage, Crimson Glory), and Jeff Plate (Wicked Witch). Jon Oliva did help with some of the writing/arranging as well, but ended up distancing himself from TSO because, well, because he's a bit of a useless drunk these days.

So it's not just a "guitarist who played metal parts in one orchestra" we're talking about here. It's an example of not ONLY metal musicians getting good session work, as well as touring work (the touring companies - both of them - are even more examples of the who's who of metal), but it's also an example of a very successful and mainstream project that is a direct result of the metal scene that you seem to hate so much, and feel contains no talent. Again, go listen to "Christmas Eve Sarajevo", it's the identical tune as the one you've heard on the radio so many, many times. NOT the work of an educated, classically trained composer. Just a drunk singer of one of those thrash bands you claim are just "clinging to the 80's".

There's so much, much, much more out there Joe. You could learn a lot, if you weren't such a dick about things.

See, now you have a far more modest tone (now you're saying you like Dio?).

Now there are good people posting reasonable things. I like Ronnie's voice. He's not putting on pretenses with it the way so many metal band singers do. He's not pretending to have a deep gruffly voice; that actually is the way his natural voice sounds. Anyway, I enjoyed the work he did with Livgren and I liked "Heaven or Hell" and what few other tracks I heard of that same album on the radio. I've never owned any of his solo records. I doubt if I would like the music on them. But I do like his voice.

Ironically, while I was at work it seems some of the more level headed people are actually GETTING THROUGH to Joe.

Speaking in condescending lies will only make you sound more sissified. If someone wants me to refer to a drummer as a musician I have no problem with it. It's not a mater of being right or wrong. It's a matter of compromise. Everything I've said has been exactly correct. Your whole point of saying Stump taught at Berklee was because you thought that meant he teaches jazz along with the other two you named. None of them teach jazz. None of them are playing sessions for a living. Neither is anyone in that Siberian Orchestra junk. (BTW, is there anyone that doesn't cringe that comes on TV?) When you know of a metal player who's played even a hundred sessions you let me know. And when you know someone at one of the big four record labels, or big-time studios, who's willing to give fulltime work to someone with a metal background, again, I'm all ears. No one's done it yet.

Page 7 already? Oops, time for another intermezzo in this flame (union rules, etc).

How's the audience? Probably sitting there the same as the ones do in here, openmouthed, stupefied by the spectacle:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZGp0hCxSg98

Now that's a great smiley.

Man, I'm throwing you examples and you just puff them away. What gives? Fighting just to fight now? Your experience in the music industry ended over a decade ago, you admit it yourself. You talk about stupid crap like "The big four music labels". It WAS 6, Joe. That entire industry is crumbling. When they built that internet thingy back when you started growing your mustache (I can't get over that fetid beaver corpse you hang under your nose), things changed a lot. The RIAA is currently suing it's own customer base, labels are depending on fewer releases and artists to turn profit, and one man disposable pop, hip hop, and rap is far more marketable and profitable. There are not regular session gigs like you claim. Maybe jazz cats playing in jazz sessions, but look at producers like Bob Rock and Mutt Lange who realize that most pop and rock is so simple they can just record the parts themselves. The money gigs, alas, don't need a "Jazz guy".

"Everything I've said has been exactly correct. Your whole point of saying Stump taught at Berklee was because you thought that meant he teaches jazz along with the other two you named. None of them teach jazz."

See, here's the funny thing: I know these guys. I know their students. I see them working drop 2 inversions, coloring, odd times, add and suss chords, and I see them all working on exercises out of their real books. You looked up a few class names on a website, so here you win, right? These guys are teaching jazz technique to their students. They may specialize in rock, or metal, but they build up a solid jazz foundation in their students. Again, a few quick google search will show you that Berklee is one of the TOP jazz schools in the country. As the jazz man himself, I'm positively shocked you don't know the origin of the Real Books, and so many of your favorite jazz musicians. Pretty bad form, Joe.

"None of them are playing sessions for a living. Neither is anyone in that Siberian Orchestra junk."

Is that up there with "you left this board because you couldn't get along with people"? You just make **** up. You have no IDEA if any of these guys are doing regular sessions. You don't look, you don't listen, you don't even acknowledge metal at all. Then you make assanine statements about a genre you obviously know NOTHING about.

"When you know of a metal player who's played even a hundred sessions you let me know. And when you know someone at one of the big four record labels, or big-time studios, who's willing to give fulltime work to someone with a metal background, again, I'm all ears. No one's done it yet."

I do. You would never listen though. You're like that. How about, "When you know a jazz musician under 25 without an established 30 year career who can actually make a living on studio session work alone, I'm all ears."

The industry is changed, I can't say it enough. You take your 40 year old record collection and try to use it as a real world example of current day.

You want examples, examples, examples, examples. Why should I keep bothering?

It's simple joe, regardless of how many useless and stubborn tangents you drag me on:
I think that what you have to ask yourself is, are you playing some kind of fad music, [like] speed metal; or are you truly a great musician who can play anything, read well, write well, sing great etc.

If you're the latter there's always gonna be room for you in this business. If the former, you'll have to get lucky."

You cannot grasp that a LOT of people playing metal ARE truly great musicians who can play anything, read well, write well, sing great, etc.

You're a closed minded fool, and fail to recognize an entire GENRE filled with more talent than you can shake a stick at. It's sad.

To cut talent and musicianship apart with such blind boundaries, why would you ever do that?

Meanwhile, I can listen to a slayer album from 25 years ago, or a slayer album from 1 year ago, and still pop in "Secret Story" and veg out to some pat methaney and Pygmy chanting. While you're still feeling the elephant's trunk, and proclaiming "It's JAZZ! An elephant is made of JAZZ!" I'm sitting 30 feet back, trying as hard as I can to take in the whole picture.

Again Joe, it's your turn to explain. How can you justify you're original statement? Give me a good example of metal musicians needing to "get lucky" to find room in the industry. You can't, and you will never be able to. Metal is NOT a fad, and very few besides yourself would ever consider it one.

By the way Mr Joe, I did a search on a few sites like Amazon.com to find some of your albums. Did a few google searches for ya too, trying to find credit for anything you've played on that was released commercially, with any sort of real distribution. No Joe, CDbaby does not count as real distribution. I found nothing. I did find my own album on amazon, as well as sam goody, CDnow, in fact every site I checked. I did find your record on CDbaby. Way at the bottom of the TOP ROCK:extended jams list. Ironically, #4 on that list, waaaaaaaaay above you, is that trans siberian orchestra guy you bashed. Alex Skolnick. And ironically, his Jazz album seems to be smoking yours. Ironic? 80's thrash metal guy just kicked your ass on CDbaby.

So where again, do you get your credentials as expert on the music biz? Because you can search articles on the interweb? Because you know a guy who knows a guy? Because you have a 40 year old, and most likely impressive, record collection?

Have you ever even DEALT with a label? Not even big four/six, but someone with at least worldwide distribution?


Yeah, good for you.

Bartlett

ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo

Bartlett

Who cares where you're from, Joe?

We signed with a label clear across the country. No strings, no tours required, but support offered if we did. Got a good deal, worldwide distribution, merch, etc. In 8 months we recorded, mixed, mastered, designed, shopped, signed, and released our record worldwide.

If you're an expert on the music industry, labels, etc... then why are you hocking homemade CD's on the interweb?

I don't care what you do. Music is about creating, passion, expression, venting, and painting pictures. It's not about pissing contests. However, where do you come across lecturing me about industry, and work?

How many of those homemade CD's have you sold or distributed? A few hundred?

Your credentials don't exist.

Before you charge in and start spouting your expert opinion about the music industry, labels, and genre maybe you need to establish some credibility first.

I'll never claim to be more than an amateur musician who loves playing and recording music I love. I have no goals of riches, or stardom or grandeur. However, while you keep spouting your expertise on labels, how they work, and how much you don't respect metal, I'll keep recording albums, playing music, and releasing it.

Go down to the STORE, and buy our album. Then you can continue your lectures about how labels work, what they look for, and who the industry will always have room for.

Meanwhile, I'll keep watching for you on garageband, CDbaby, and your oh so beautiful webpage to see that wonderful industry expertise in action.

Did you want to continue arguing? I like it. It's like watching a fish out of water flop on the shore line.

I hate to be mean, and believe it or not I don't mean to be. Consider it an angry parent trying to mold and shape their child's thinking.

Xfusion, I hope this thread has been a valuable lesson in what happens to people who take music too seriously.

Music should be fun, and rejuvenating, and if you come from work and are too tired and stressed to do music, then I have to say I doubt if it's really your thing. I think the people who are destined to really "make it" in the world of music are exactly the kind of people who can't NOT do it, they can't HELP doing it.

I think a lot of people are really into the *idea* of being a musician, but that's a totally different thing than a real commitment to/obsession with the music itself.

I still think if you're not doing it now, you're not gonna do it when you quit work. What do you do on the weekends? How many hours a day do you work?