I kinda wandered around my own point in that last post.

My point is, if you want to give music a serious effort, you need to ditch the job or have one that allows you to take off and tour constantly. However, the odds of the music ever making you as self sufficient as the job are slim to none.

And by the way, stop having your mid-music-life crisis at 25. That's ****ed. I'm 31 years old, and I spent the last 2 years playing in a grindcore death metal band. Talent and dedication are ageless. If you love what you do, you'll still be doing it when you're old and wrinkled like that scary guy in the six flags commercials.

ORIGINAL: gary_huff

I'm not a purist... but music is part of my being not what I do.
I've made millions $$$ performing for sold out arenas in my hayday... actually I just sold out two 20K arenas last year!
now i keep a good day job and continue to write and perform...
For me the key thing to remember is that life is about balance, ying to the yang... if you don't have it you tip and fall...
A wise person once told me many years ago... "As long and you enjoy the road getting to where you want to be... it doesn't matter if you get there"
My advice to you is don't use music as an excuse not to "keep it real"... you can work and still follow your music it dream.
Peace, :)
Gary

Don't let this give you a false sense of optimism. He gives you sound advice, but he's throwing false numbers at you. The key word is "Heyday". No one makes this kind of money anymore from performance and record royalties. The only artist doing million dollar shows anymore are all long standing reputable musicians whose popularity extend beyond our own generation. Streisand, Madonna, The Police, etc... can still do it.

As for you? Never. The largest grossing U.S. festival is currently Ozzfest. Bands on this tour can expect to PAY around $100-200,000 to play it. The industry has changed a great deal.

And, frankly, with the current and ever growing level of theft of intellectual property, even the biggest bands may soon reach the point where they can only make money touring because the number of honest folks left who will buy the stuff won't be enough to cover the expenses of getting the material produced plus the profit required by the studios to make it worth their while to even be in that business.

At 25, with a high school education, good parental support, and a burning desire to do music for a living, you should probably quit your job. Go to university (a proper accredited one--not one that advertises at 2am) for a music (or related) degree to a) improve your musicianship, b) network with other musicians, and c) have a backup plan that's not going to stop you from being musical. Don't go into a lot (if any) debt to do this, work part time if you need to, keep that albatross away if possible, it will interfere with being able to play music.

And adjust your expectations. As you know, few folks get rich off this, and as mentioned above, the sidemen last longer than the stars, usually. A friend of a friend was a touring bassist in a well known southern rock band. Hired gun, not a band member. He made around $40k us a year for touring, while the band only made around half that, as their tour was selling poorly.

Also investigate avenues for musical income other than RockStarDom. The video game embedding mentioned above is good, jingles, ringtones, discover the 'other' that will keep you fed.

But yea, you're 25, and have manageable debt...go for it, unrealized dreams are a b!tch, but unfollowed dreams are much worse.

Xfusion
against my better judgement heres my $2 cents

IMO , you are not asking the right questions unless it is your desire to get a variety of oppinions on A White Elephant that happens to be in the living room...

Yeah , its cozy and warm around here with all the company of forum members
opinions are plentyfull...true ...maby even some insight might even show up

dang even the Devil has got a line of wannabes stretching clear across the globe looking looking to sell thier souls for the magic E ticket ride on the Musical Band Wagon

a few points to consider
What is your intended Market?
who are they ?
what do you have to bring to the table that is unique ..that only you can bring....
in other words ...why should we listen to you?
Are you looking to Enlighten ?
or are you looking to entertain?
what slant can you bring to the same old same old that can put you in a position to be self supporting and make money at something you love?
knowing your intended market is the first hurdle to over come...

Are you planning on the direct approach ?
or are you planning on assembling a team ?

What are your strenths ? what are your weakness?
do you have thick skin ? can you handle rejection and get back up off the mat before the 10 count...
does your vision have the fortutude to continue on even if the world itself casts you aside?

Are you exploitable ?
if you want to make money in music you have to be able to give people the impression of your marketability ....
the people that can help you need to see dollar signs way before you will ever see a buck...
have you ever played a sold out room with 10 grand worth of just your own gear and had to pay members of a group and left in the red..?
how did you handle that?
can you handle that and keep your vision of music inspite of such common setbacks..

Who have you ran your music by..?
what do industry people think about your tunes?
are you looking to write them and have others perform them ?
are you looking to perform them your self?

do you understand that the easy'st way to get what you want is to give others what they want first?
that means somtimes you can get further along by helping someone else reach thier dreams , and you play a supporting role ... doors and experiences can open up later on down the road...

can you deal with jelousy and back stabiing from peers?
can you let it slide when people are slamming you behind your back , and to your face they are your long lost bud?

can you tell the difference between a Bench Warmewr and a Real Player?

what are you willing to give up to get what you want...?

Imo these are just a few questions to consider
take them for what they are worth....


Kenny

i skimmed this thread so hopefully won't repeat anything...

i'll just go out on a limb and say i haven't bought any CDs from part-time musicians. that's not to say i don't enjoy the stuff on the songs forum or that there isn't talent there, but there is a marked difference between soundclick and my mp3 collection.

that said, my advice? if you are single, give it a shot. you may not make the billboard top 20 but maybe you'll find with some real practice and some live gigging that you've found what you've wanted to be all your life. if you aren't happy with where you end up, then chances are you can find a boring job and make a hobby out of music.

if you have to support a family though, you owe to them not to risk their futures. put your stuff out there and if something happens, it happens. if not, you still made music.

personally, there are three things that i absolutely love: my wife, information security, and music, the last two switching back and forth depending on whether i'm at work or at home. information security will support my wife, but music probably won't. maybe if i did nothing else, i might make enough to get by, i might get "discovered" without being fleeced by the record label or i might find out the hard way that i suck and no one wants to listen to it. fortunately, i love my job and most days i look forward to it, so either way i'm pretty much happy.

i don't believe that life is what you make it, but i do believe that there is always room for one more talented person to rise to the top. that person could be you, and you'll never know if you don't try.

Dunno about the state of the economy there and all that, but if it took you 9 months with your qualifications and youth to get a not-so-good job, I'd think twice about giving up such security for the time being, you never know how long it takes for things to pull up a bit again, and you're not getting any younger in the meantime - could make getting any job at all only harder even in a few years.

Sorry if I sound negative, but this is my gut-feeling about this. Maybe just do it on the side, or keep looking for a job where you can fit in your music somehow - I remember those monotonic and repetitive production jobs are great for having a brain holiday, all expenses paid. Especially the repetitive sounds of machines can work as a great rhytmic background your fantasy keeps trying to escape from, I have to use loops/chords for that. Think I read someone else also saying things in that direction - it's true for quite a few people apparently.

HTH

ORIGINAL: ArrowHead

I was lucky enough to have spent a few years singing in an awesome metal band. We got a record deal with Unique Leader, who is one of the most significant labels for the style we played. I got to see my album online, in stores, and most importantly, in peoples HANDS. It was pretty fulfilling.

I also got to meet and play with a lot of other bands, who had also signed record deals. Some with bigger labels, some smaller. Some had endorsements, vans, busses, etc... No matter though, they all got what they had the same way: Touring. And the reality is that even the best bands, and the really successful ones, didn't make much money. And it's NOT as glorious as one may think. Hotel rooms and limos went out in the 80's. Nowadays, you're far more likely to be spooning with the bassist in the back of a van while the drummer is driving to the next gig.

I'm not arguing for or against music as a profession. It has wonderful rewards, and it has it's shortfalls. However, I'll be brutally honest with you: To become and stay successful as a recording artist can and most likely will require lots of touring. And even then, success is not guaranteed. In addition, you're not going to make a lot of money. I'm not going to drop names, since finances are private matters, but I'll give you a good example: From near where I am, there is a very successful band. They get regular MTV play, have an awesome recording contract with a major label that is one of the biggest and most long standing in the industry, and do massive tours and festivals all year long. I had always assumed that these guys were making HUGE money. Once, when setting up a bill, I found out that it cost upward of $10,000 to play a single show. Figure that multiplied by 5-6 shows a night, 8 or 9 months at a time, and I just assumed these guys were all loaded. Turns out, in fact, that when touring each band member gets around 20-30 dollars a day to live off of. That's it. Any other money that make is off merch sales, and that goes into a band-fund. In other words, it's less than they'd be making working at McDonalds. In ADDITION, when they are off-tour, the label pays them around $800 a week each to live off of. This is again the equivalent of working at McDonald's, only as a manager this time.

It's not glorious, and it's not the most intelligent way to earn a living, but it has immense rewards especially if you're doing it because you love to play. If you are simply entertaining the idea of lottery winning style pay and rock stardom, though, I'd drop the idea pretty quickly.

Sounds like that "famous" band was in such a rush for fame that they were signing papers before even reading them. My best friend tours around the US, has a small label, and alone makes upwards of $100,000 a year. I did a 5 state tour for 4 years about 6-7 years ago, and loved being on the road, made many of friends and made damn good money, even after spending a lot on food and alcohol. I'll never regret it, and could have made a damn good living too. Sure it costs a lot of money to make a album with a major label, and to tour, but if your making chump change, than you'd better get away from that label ASAP, and hopefully you didn't sign for more that 2 albums. Totally pessimistic and pathetic.

Pretty much any kind of business can be hard & pay little if you don't pay attention, educate yourself and take charge. Fortunately, my dad is an attorney. So I've had to do all three for all of my life. [...ever try to talk an attorney into doing something he's not REALLY keen on doing? You better know what's goin' on, know the facts & be aggressive. Otherwise you'll go home empty-handed AND with your tail between your legs.]

ORIGINAL: APC3


Sounds like that "famous" band was in such a rush for fame that they were signing papers before even reading them. My best friend tours around the US, has a small label, and alone makes upwards of $100,000 a year. I did a 5 state tour for 4 years about 6-7 years ago, and loved being on the road, made many of friends and made damn good money, even after spending a lot on food and alcohol. I'll never regret it, and could have made a damn good living too. Sure it costs a lot of money to make a album with a major label, and to tour, but if your making chump change, than you'd better get away from that label ASAP, and hopefully you didn't sign for more that 2 albums. Totally pessimistic and pathetic.

Soooooo, you totally missed the part where I said death metal, right? There's more money to be made in other genres for sure, but the numbers I state are pretty accurate across the board for most METAL bands. And the particular band I mention has toured with Ozzfest multiple times, and headlined their own sold out tours as well. As for rushing for fame, they have one of the more solid agreements with one of the top 6 major labels, and all have enough past label and band experience to know what they're getting into.

As for your own statements, What you did 7 years ago is supposed to reflect on NOW in what way? As for your friend who tours regularly making over 100,000 a year, would you care to divulge a few details on how he's doing it? Considering recoupable expenditures it's not likely the shows pay that well for him, so he's either got a killer merch business, or perhaps he has his fingers into other aspects of the business you fail to mention. Or are you just foolishly lumping label advances in as income?

I am not trying to be pessemistic, and most certainly am NOT pathetic. I gave real first person examples of the CURRENT state of the music industry. I also stated numerous times that I loved every minute of what I did, and am currently ramping up the next project to go do more of the same. That said, I'm not going to allow someone to make a life altering decision of this sort without taking the time to let them know the likelyhood and reality of becoming a self-sufficient and successful musician.

Of course, you could easily have done the same without having to quote and attack my own statements. I guess you were giving another example of one of the downsides to professional music: Musicians are some damned immature people.

Good day, sir.