ORIGINAL: Roflcopter

actually I'm closing in on 50, and still have an open mind.

Well, you don't sound it *at all*.

I see you like your titles non-confusing:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=545099

that's funnythat's some of my youngest sons music and he wanted to see what others though of it That's not quite my style, but it's good that he's trying to do something unique, and hell he's only 15, and play guitar, bass, and drums very well. I actually forgot that was even there until this thread, so thanks for the head up.

ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo

BTW, if someone wants to play alternative rock, disco, etc, that's certainly their right. However, don't expect to get many calls if yu want to do any studio work.

You don't get out of your neck of the woods often, do you? While you spout your OPINION about the viability for metal, pop, and alternative musicians to get steady session and teaching work, I chuckle at the FACT that right now as we speak classes at Berklee School of Music with teachers like Jon Finn, Joe Stump, and Mike Mangini have waiting lists longer than any other faculty. But of course, according to you these guys aren't qualified, right?

The drummer of my last project, an extreme grind metal band, has recorded drums on at least 4 nationally released albums in the last 2 years. He has also done recording and production work on at least another 4 in that time. He's a sought after teacher as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsfPYozBOms


Of course, if you were to watch that video, you'd probably come up with a dozen explanations about how this kind of "fad" playing isn't marketable enough to land him steady and diverse studio, production, and teaching work. Right?


I think your opinions about musical genre are the same thing to me as nose and ear hair: simple but obvious signs of your aging. You're far, far less in tune with the modern music industry than you think you are. You also obviously equate TALENT and you own musical PREFERENCES, when this is simply not the case.

For you to say that musicians playing metal, hip hop, and alternative rock do not have the chops or skills to do session work for other styles of music is assumptive and absolutely WRONG. As I've already said, I've got 20 years of music education myself, including a concentrated study in applied jazz guitar. While I can safely say that I could competently sit in on one of your precious jazz sessions you keep mentioning as being lucrative and stable, I doubt you have the chops to step up and do a metal session. Your own portrayal of the need for well roundedness in the gigging musician only seems to show your own lack thereof.

I haven't read this whole thread, but it looks like it's taken a couple of wacky twists. Sure, I have my own ideas of which styles are "better" than others, but I think it all comes down to this:

ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
there's also something to be said about music as it relates to people. in my opinion, if your music doesn't relate to someone then that's true failure.

Righto. IMO, music is a form of communication just like a language. It depends not only on your ability to transmit BUT EQUALLY on your audience's ability to receive. Example: Latin is the language preferred by scholars, but is it really effective to write a book in Latin these days? No, you gotta dumb it down into good ole English (that's American English ) if you want to be effective.

So anyway, how does this lead back to the OP? I think you need to examine your reasons for wanting to go into music. If you just want to do it because it makes you feel good, I'd say it's more of a hobby than a career path. But on the other hand you have something important to "say", and you want to share it with like-minded individuals out there (no matter how many or how few), then go for it dude!

"You don't get out of your neck of the woods often, do you?"

Um ... for someone who "claims" to have studied music for twenty years you sound awfully 15ish.

"Jon Finn, Joe Stump, and Mike Mangini"

Who? Looking through the mountain of records I've owned since the late 60's, their names appear on none of them. Oh, but I could show you a list of Billboard Top 10 charters from 1967 of which Louis Shelton played on seven. Such is the life of a real studio musician capable of doing anything. Larry Carlton, Dean Parks, Tommy Tedesco, Jay Grayden, Hadley Hockensmith, Alex Acuna, Abe Laboriel, Lee Ritenour, Steve Lukather, Steve Khan, Robben Ford, these are the names we've all seen for several years, and still do see, on most records as session players. It's always the jazz cats.

"...according to you these guys aren't qualified, right?"

No, they certainly are not, which is why they aren't doing it. You can bet they aren't teaching anything but metal to other idiots. And that's all they'll ever do because it's all they're qualified to do.

"The drummer of my last project, an extreme grind metal band, has recorded drums on at least 4 nationally released albums in the last 2 years."

Golly gee, a whole four albums!

"Of course, if you were to watch that video, you'd probably come up with a dozen explanations about how this kind of "fad" playing isn't marketable enough to land him steady and diverse studio, production, and teaching work. Right?"

I won't have to; common sense will do it for me.

"I think your opinions about musical genre are the same thing to me as nose and ear hair: simple but obvious signs of your aging. You're far, far less in tune with the modern music industry than you think you are. You also obviously equate TALENT and you own musical PREFERENCES, when this is simply not the case."

No, YOU obviously equate TALENT and your OWN musical PREFERENCES. And your preferences are that of an underdeveloped 15 year old. When you grow up you'll see things differently. But right now, you're at that age where you want to drive around with the windows down and the radio up full blast. Like all 15 year olds, you think you know everything, and you want to push those beliefs off on everyone you come into contact with.

"For you to say that musicians playing metal, hip hop, and alternative rock do not have the chops or skills to do session work for other styles of music is assumptive and absolutely WRONG."

No, it is exactly right, as anybody with an IQ above 75 will tell you, which is why they aren't doing session work. No record company is going to pay triple scale to anyone who doesn't have a jazz background. It's never going to happen. They know if a guy is a top flight jazz player that chances are he can do absolutely anything. Jazz is the king of all musical genres. There's a reason why it's always been referred to as music for other musicians to listen to. If you ain't into jazz, you ain't happening. And that's exactly the way any exec in this industry is going to treat you.

Wow, you're so far off into your own beliefs that I don't even think a long drawn out reply would serve any purpose at all, Joe.

I'll just cover the basics then:

Mike Mangini is currently teaching drums at Berklee. He's not teaching heavy metal, as you put it. He teaches Jazz. He is on record as the world's fastest drummer, and has played with bands varying from the heavy metal group Annihilator to Steve Vai. Same basics also go for the other two faculty I mentioned. Not sure where you got the idea they teach heavy metal, since last I checked Berklee is still a school that focuses mainly on Jazz theory and technique.

"Golly gee, a whole four albums!", if you'd counted, thats EIGHT albums, and I said "at least". Throw in the fact that he has released and also TOURED with each of these bands, in a two year time span, and yes... it really is "golly gee". I'm sure if he were to stay home and do nothing but session work his resume would expand exponentially.

In short, you are still attacking the forms of music you don't listen to. I'm sitting here saying I studied and love jazz, and play heavy metal. How you figure the I am the one with the 15 year old mentality equating talent with my own tastes is hard to fathom. I see talent everywhere, in every genre. Even stuff like rap, or techno, which I personally cannot stand. Meanwhile, you easily dismiss an entire segment of the music industry due to your own tastes. You also dismiss a musical format that has a 40 year lifespan as a "fad". Jazz, by the way, only has about 80 years. Many classical purists would bash your own beloved jazz as just as much of a "fad".

In closing, I must poke at your statement that "Jazz is the king of all musical genres. There's a reason why it's always been referred to as music for other musicians to listen to". Lately, I hear that kind of statement thrown around a lot more regarding metal bands such as Dream Theater. Check out a band like Candiria: they play very heavy metal music with odd times, grating guitars, and screaming/rapping for vocals. The members all recently recorded an album under the name of Ghosts of the Canal, a straight up improv jazz album.

I've given more than enough examples. Anyone reading this thread can easily read my responses to you and see for themselves that there are plenty of people playing metal that are talented, educated musicians who are more than capable of doing plenty of cross-genre session, teaching, and studio work. Bash it all you like, but it's still going to sound like an aging Jazz enthusiast clinging to his own beloved formats of past. In no way does your opinion realistically represent the CURRENT state of the music business, no matter how much you believe the opposite.

"And your preferences are that of an underdeveloped 15 year old. When you grow up you'll see things differently."

I just gotta add one thing, because any metal head on this forum (all 2 of them) will get a good s**** out of it. I'm 31 years old. When I was 14, I had a guy working in a music store say the same basic thing to me when I tried out a guitar and started playing heavy metal riffs. He, like you, told me that metal was simply a passing fad, and would have no longevity. 17 years later I still love to listen to and play heavy metal. 17 years later, and the metal industry is larger than ever before. As you tout Jazz as the pinnacle of session work, I gotta ask: how many jazz albums were released, promoted, and made substantial profit in the last year alone? Now how many metal albums? I wonder, then, where the majority of the session work will be over the course of the near and far future.

I for one hope that neither metal NOR jazz are any kind of passing trend. I'd prefer the opportunity to play and listen to both 40 years from now.

...and then there is classical. Let's see, the Strad and Guarneri violins are about 300 years old and still considered some of the best instruments on the planet. And the violin took quite some time to develop. So there is probably a good 400-600 years of classical history if one merely considers the violin. Add to that the liturgical background of western classical music and I think it's safe to say that it was/is not a passing trend.

The IMSLP currently has classical music score categories dating back to 1300AD and before. So that makes what......about 700 years of classical (or developmental classical) history.

Needless to say, I rarely get bent out of shape when these 'your genre is a passing fad' conversations come up.

OK, we interrupt this flame war for a nice bit of music (this *is* the song forum, you know, and there 's Union rules and all that jazz, and we *are* halfway page 3, OK?)

Warning! Contains old person (O-rated). Only his fingers don't seem to have caught on yet.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6lbvSBNLLoo

ORIGINAL: Roflcopter

OK, we interrupt this flame war for a nice bit of music (this *is* the song forum, you know, and there 's Union rules and all that jazz, and we *are* halfway page 3, OK?)

Warning! Contains old person (O-rated). Only his fingers don't seem to have caught on yet.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6lbvSBNLLoo

Hey, an actual musician! And a certified guitar player at that. of course I played like that when I was a baby.

"As you tout Jazz as the pinnacle of session work, I gotta ask: how many jazz albums were released, promoted, and made substantial profit in the last year alone? Now how many metal albums?"

You're making an actual argument from numbers? Not a very adult move kiddo. But I'll let that straw man alone since you've got nothing else going for you.

"You also dismiss a musical format that has a 40 year lifespan as a "fad"."

Ditto as before. There are very few radio stations playing metal. There's a jazz station in every town. And there are people who still make funk records too. It's still a fad. Be a hanger on if you want to. But dead is dead. And metal had about a ten year lifespan at best. It's amazing the way people want to bring good music into their genre for added relevance. I would never in a million years classify hard rock like Satch, Led Zep, Dream Theatre, Vai (except for the Alcatraz junk he did for a buck), Jeff Beck, or Hendrix as heavy metal. I don't care where the phrase started (and yes I know). And you can bet none of those guys would have ever wanted to be associated with the junk that metal came to represent. Ask any ten people on the street to name 4 heavy metal bands and they're gonna say Motley Poo, Metalicrap, Def Leotard, and the worst of the worst--Quiet Riot. All a load of kiddi crap. And they have nothing at all in common with the hard rock bands previously mentioned. True heavy metal started around 1985 and died in less than ten years. Rest in pieces.