• Coffee House
  • Doodling/drawing to kickstart creativity and facilitate thinking (p.3)
2015/07/03 13:35:55
sharke
Moshkito
sharke
Moshkito you appear to be overthinking this and going off on a tangent. Personally I'm shocked!

Here, read this:

http://www.amazon.com/The...ferently/dp/1591847036


There is NOT an ounce of thinking in what I wrote. It's all experiential and has been done. Musicians are the only ones that are afraid to try different processes of rehearsing and doing things, and experimenting.  Groups like King Crimson, use procedures from Gurdgieff for their rehearsal techniques and designs. So does Return to Forever, though they might not call it that at all.
 
Again, you guys don't believe anyone can help ... is the only problem! And there is, out there, some serious magic, that many do not believe in, because Harry Potter is safe and your covers are SAFER!
 
Why is it that your respect meter will say that something at Amazon is good, and what I wrote is not? You didn't even grok it enough to discuss it, which suggests you did not even read it!
 
Have you looked at the material and discussion in depth, enough, to actually see if there is something or not? You really think I would be writing all this and it is all fantasy, and that I did not live through it? There's more that I have forgotten, than I can tell you at all!
 
AND I HAVE OVER 200 PICTURES TO PROVE IT! Sadly, the family does not like the "work" and I can not reproduce it ... but I can show it to folks ... if they are interested. But with gents like you not interested, it's really hard to not say something rude, because I do not like to be rude for the sake of being rude. You or anyone else here do not deserve that! But I am automatically wrong, and the Amazon link is more important, because you do not understand know the difference, when it is being explained right there to you ... and you can not visualize it!
 
Sorry ...
 
And it ALL starts with a scratch that looks stupid! But your "values" automatically condemn it!


I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It has to be said.
2015/07/03 18:17:39
craigb
Moshkito
There is NOT an ounce of thinking in what I wrote.



What more did you need to know Sharke? 
2015/07/03 18:55:42
sharke
craigb
Moshkito
There is NOT an ounce of thinking in what I wrote.



What more did you need to know Sharke? 




I honestly don't know because the subject has gotten very confusing! I started off making a simple point about doodling being good for creativity but apparently I don't know anything and it's actually so complicated that I don't have a hope in hell of understanding it. Maybe I didn't watch enough Sesame Street as a kid....
2015/07/03 20:51:21
craigb
sharke
Maybe I didn't watch enough Sesame Street as a kid....



So I'm guessing you need more H. R. Pufnstuf and Fraggle Rock then too! 
2015/07/03 23:58:06
sharke
Everything I learned, I learned from Grover. Near versus far, up versus down, the difference between a caterpillar and a cow. I hate how they replaced him with that little sh**bag Elmo. I have a client who works for Sesame Street and her apartment is chock full of Sesame Street stuff. It's all Elmo, Elmo, Elmo. Not one piece of Grover merchandise in the whole place. Disgraceful. 
2015/07/05 12:28:31
Moshkito
sharke
craigb
Moshkito
There is NOT an ounce of thinking in what I wrote.



What more did you need to know Sharke? 




I honestly don't know because the subject has gotten very confusing! I started off making a simple point about doodling being good for creativity but apparently I don't know anything and it's actually so complicated that I don't have a hope in hell of understanding it. Maybe I didn't watch enough Sesame Street as a kid....



And I tried to tell you that doodling can be done a thousand different ways, with one exception ... you could only go back to your link, and not find/see that someone else had an interesting experience, that was also considered "doodling", except that we ended up with something out of it, after a year or two and more than 200 hours of meditations on tape! Yeah ... it became fast later, but the start was laborious and slow, but the moments of clarity and beauty ... too good to be true.
 
You have to believe, more than just a "doodle" ... and in fact, think that ANY doodle, is not just a doodle!
 
And this is something that too many musicians are not willing to risk and learn from!
2015/07/05 13:59:51
sharke
Moshkito
sharke
craigb
Moshkito
There is NOT an ounce of thinking in what I wrote.



What more did you need to know Sharke? 




I honestly don't know because the subject has gotten very confusing! I started off making a simple point about doodling being good for creativity but apparently I don't know anything and it's actually so complicated that I don't have a hope in hell of understanding it. Maybe I didn't watch enough Sesame Street as a kid....



And I tried to tell you that doodling can be done a thousand different ways, with one exception ... you could only go back to your link, and not find/see that someone else had an interesting experience, that was also considered "doodling", except that we ended up with something out of it, after a year or two and more than 200 hours of meditations on tape! Yeah ... it became fast later, but the start was laborious and slow, but the moments of clarity and beauty ... too good to be true.
 
You have to believe, more than just a "doodle" ... and in fact, think that ANY doodle, is not just a doodle!
 
And this is something that too many musicians are not willing to risk and learn from!


I went back and read it, and I still don't understand what you were on about. I think you have to keep things a lot simpler for the likes of me to understand. You write very much in a "train of thought" style which touches upon a lot of things and experiences which make perfect sense to you because they're already in your head as solid things and experiences, but which sound vague and unconnected to me. I don't mean to be rude, just being plainly honest! If your point was that doodling also applies to musicians, well I understand that, and would have understood perfectly well if you'd said it like that. But it's things like

You guys are all musicians ... but suggesting a try on this and that ... won't go anywhere, because none of you will stand up, try it (with honest intents) and come back and say ... this is what I felt ... even if it was stupid ... which would tell you your concentration is not on what you are doing, but comparing it to what you know ... you're making an assumption that you know it all with the notes and chords and music!


which leave me scratching my head (and also wondering if I've just been insulted or not :))
2015/07/05 15:17:48
craigb
The English language is so much fun, isn't it?  The following sentences are actually grammatically correct:
 
Anyone who feels that if so many more students whom we haven’t actually admitted are sitting in on the course than ones we have that the room had to be changed, then probably auditors will have to be excluded, is likely to agree that the curriculum needs revision.
 
This exceeding trifling witling, considering ranting criticizing concerning adopting fitting wording being exhibiting transcending learning, was displaying, notwithstanding ridiculing, surpassing boasting swelling reasoning, respecting correcting erring writing, and touching detecting deceiving arguing during debating.
 
BUFFALO BUFFALO BUFFALO BUFFALO BUFFALO BUFFALO BUFFALO BUFFALO.
2015/07/05 15:38:06
craigb
Oh, and the word "Doodle" originally meant a fool or simpleton and, when contracted with the word "Dandy" (one who felt he was dressed better than anyone else) you get the word "Dude." 
2015/07/05 18:59:40
Moshkito
sharke ... I went back and read it, and I still don't understand what you were on about. I think you have to keep things a lot simpler for the likes of me to understand. You write very much in a "train of thought" style which touches upon a lot of things and experiences which make perfect sense to you because they're already in your head as solid things and experiences, but which sound vague and unconnected to me. I don't mean to be rude, just being plainly honest! If your point was that doodling also applies to musicians, well I understand that, and would have understood perfectly well if you'd said it like that.

 
The whole experience, is not a minute long, is part of the problem. In a way, yeah, I did not condense it enough to make it clearer for you or anyone else.
 
Essentially, we recorded many meditations and experiences, until we figured out some sort of this or that or this or that, and then undertook whatever course, it made sense to use, or work with.
 
It's never perfect!
 
But it started with "doodling", or in our case, something much easier ... a scratch of a line on a blank piece of paper ... and that line becomes the most important part of the whole thing, but you don't see that, or understand that until so far out there later, that you can, easily, lose a sense of perspective RESPECTIVE to time.
 
moshkiaeYou guys are all musicians ... but suggesting a try on this and that ... won't go anywhere, because none of you will stand up, try it (with honest intents) and come back and say ... this is what I felt ... even if it was stupid ... which would tell you your concentration is not on what you are doing, but comparing it to what you know ... you're making an assumption that you know it all with the notes and chords and music!

 
sharke ... which leave me scratching my head (and also wondering if I've just been insulted or not :))

 
No insults required or necessary, and I stated that in the article.
 
I have not had an easy time with "musicians", and surprisingly enough, the ones that are the least professional, as in known and recorded and such, are usually the ones that are the most defensive ... I could have this conversation with Daevid Allen (and did!!!) about creativity and learning, and he even said in his early days on his guitar/glissando/meditation workshops, he did the same thing. He was even surprised that I did psychic things with actors and helped them. And that they worked. But suggesting this to anyone here at the Coffee House, it's like ... he's full of merde anyway, and he's a nobody, and besides, the doodle book is at Amazon, and he would not know anything!
 
I'm a student of the "unknown" and the "unknowable", in case you have not figured it out. AND it does not matter the "medium" because the source is the same ... in simple terms ... YOU ... inside, and the depth is insane, and sometimes, the doodle, is one sidestep that helps you get there ... but when you stop it, because you want a hand, the "doodle" stops being a doodle ... it now has to become a representation of a hand ... and guess what rock'n'roll's main issue is? ... AN IMAGE of something that doesn't exist, and is different in everyone's interpretation ... but the "doodle" has a life, you can not define ... because it is not a "living thing" ... it's an invisible feeling that is a part of you, that you either recognize, or you don't. Your looking around, shows that you are curious ... but now, you need to take the 2nd step ... how far do you want to go?
And guess where most people quit?
 
My inner experiences, have come from not knowing a language and having to be force fed by images to survive. This included foreign films and subtitles, until I figured out they were bad translations ... and eventually I even learned that the translations of my dad's own poetry (even by my older sister!!!) were horrendous and had no flow whatsoever! The "source" was not there, and I learned that when I touched my dad's inert body on that one day in church! That was just a body .. the spirit was gone ... and even things like Gong/soft Machine ... "you can kill my body, but you can't kill me ... taught me the difference between a word and just another rock idiot lyric. The same for literature.
 
And then, I learned to doodle with actors, actresses and by directing and moving a camera! On one of my films the professor (from USC, by the way) even said ... that what I did was an incredible conceptual piece ... and no one in the class came close to one such piece. And I can easily tell you that all I did was color a piece of music (by Kevin Ayers) with a film! In reality, it was what "I Saw" ... nothing more or less, but I got the "visuals totally right!
 
It TEACHES you to use that "inner" feel! It helps so much ... that you end up crying wondering how you missed that as a child!
(Now you know why it hurt when Bapu was not interested in my Hypgnosis picture for an album or promo, for the CHB on their first song! I know, it's not what they thought ... but the feeling was there, and guess what? ... that image is still alive and burning! But he won't understand that side of it at all, because it's a part of me, not him!)
 
It's hard when you "see things" and no one believes you ... in fact, sometimes it's no fun at all! But I know, in my heart of hearts, I have been truthful, and I tried as well as I know how and saw at that moment. It's just a shame I am not working with artists and writers or actors anymore! I've given up, and hearing stuff like this from folks here, makes it worse ... no one gives a ****!
 
Thanks for taking the time Sharke ... it will be remembered and is appreciated! 
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