UbiquitousBubba ... Speaking only for myself and the other musicians I've known personally over the years, the vast majority of us "doodle" on our instruments, experimenting with sounds and just playing for the fun of it....

 
I would never consider that this is not the case. Because I know it isn't the case.
 

UbiquitousBubba ... Playing for the feeling and for the mood can produce a lot of noise, but it sometimes results in a moment of genius. Some players regularly record their musical doodling just in case they tripped over something great.

 
I would be careful in wording this. Which came first, the chicken or the egg, kinda thing. There are just as many times when the "thing" is there, and you spend several months trying to interpret it and put it down, regardless of talent, or musical knowledge. Likewise, just as many folks spend many hours, days and what not refining something ... and still not be happy with it.
 
There is something here that you know about ... that you did not mention! You realize that many of the youngsters that went on to do "progressive rock", did not have  30 years of music training behind them, and they still put together AWESOME work, as have many others.
 
I can tell you from a rehearsal space, that sometimes, a few folks "grok it" (my favorite word for it!) and can continue off it from the first go. Others, have to gesticulate it in their minds and find the intentions and the emotional reactions for it. You make it sound like the "great" actors do not rehearse! Actually, most of them rehearse 5 to 10 times more than anyone else, and it is one of the reasons why they are good ... but they are in the search for seconds, inside a moment, not necessarily for a character, and this is akin to you just playing 3 notes, and it defines that whole song, but it ISN'T the whole song!
 
The parallels are the same! I'm not sure if musicians are more stuck on their theory and "learning", than they are in anything else. Almost 75% of them are into "jazz', or "rock", or "this or that", I have found, and asking them to try something else, or listen to something else, is scary for them, because it throws them OFF their "path", which, I guess (how stupid of me!) means they become lesser musicians ... hahaha!!!!
 

UbiquitousBubba ...The idea that musicians are too arrogant and/or stupid to experiment with music is grossly inaccurate.

 
I've tripped around with a few bands in my time taking pictures and had the chance to talk to many of them. In my whole life, only two of them, Christian Vander and Daevid Allen could talk "etherics" or "far out" stuff, and then go play their stuff ... there was no interference, or annoying anything!
 
Here, it's weird ... it's like ... I'm not sharing a secret! Guess what? Music or any art, is NOT about the secret of this or that ... it's about HOW GOOD YOU ARE AT TRANSLATING YOUR INNER VIBE. Just about everything else is ... as you say ... probably too mental a battle. It doesn't have to be, if your rehearsals are more than just a note and chord workout!
 
To suggest that only people with technical skills can do anything, is a bit weird, when the whole of the 20th century has been all about the breaking down of the "technical skill", in order to find something else in music, that is just as simple, and just as important, as anything that was previously done!
 
This does not take "doodling", any more than it takes "practice" ... what it takes is CONCENTRATION, which is diametrically opposed to practice. One is inversely proportional to the other! And this has been proven time and time again ... but many folks, even here, keep saying that only practice will make you good! ... it might not be solid enough, as it could be, and you can tell in the playing! Or better yet, in their songs ... and their ability to do more than just a redo of an old song! Well, even Robert Wyatt has done a few ... but you would be hard pressed to think ... that was The Rolling Stones' song?
 

UbiquitousBubba ... It's understandable that people who are unaware of the difficulty and complexity of learning an instrument might think that all we need to do is make noise at random to write music. That kind of experimentation only works after countless hours have been spent meticulously honing those mundane skills. To someone who is not a musician, those years spent practicing are nothing but wasted time. Musicians know it may take thousands of hours of practice to create a few seconds of great music. ...

 
Bubba ... the best actors out there will embarass you with this line! They rehearse in their sleep, in the mirror, in the shower ... non-stop! They will do it having lunch with you, even!
 

UbiquitousBubba ... That assessment is insulting to actors because, in my ignorance of the art form and its disciplines, I did not see the same level of discipline and skill in their performance as we musicians put into ours. ...

 
They both put in their time. Actors no less or more than you do! You just don't see it, because you do not consider a "person" performance important, since you have never considered the physical aspects, and other elements of acting, that add to the inner completeness of what you do. Most rock bands think that sexy is all they need, or a slight undressed woman at the front, to get some attention!
 

UbiquitousBubba ... We will gravitate towards random paint splatters, accidental noise, and mindless spasms. On the other hand, operating from a point of view that values order over chaos will reverse these approaches. Extreme focus on order may result in heartless realism, devoid of any emotion. Music may be mechanical and dull. Most of us will fall somewhere in the middle along this spectrum. Some of us may drift more towards order than chaos while others may run the other way.

 
I try not to define "music", any more than I do literature, any more than I do "art".
 
The spectrum from random to precise, is illusory for me ... the minute you find McLaughlin, the next day you hear a Gismonti, and then you hear a Django ... and then you hear Keith jarrett, and the word disappears, since the definitions for all of us are variable.
 
The funnies thing, was when directing, I was excellent at empty stages ... and just symbolic this or that ... a square, a platform, and nothing "real" ... you know why? It gave us room to go wider and further ... it gave us "space" to move, instead of being tied behind a chair next to a sofa and table! Music has the same "implications" as does literature and other arts ... we just think that they are all different ... and in the end, I keep simply saying ... it's the same source ... you INNER BEING ... and all I try to do is help bring it out.
 
This doesn't man that I'm going to ask Karyn to do Betty Boop, or Janet to do Lucy, or Bapu to do Fred Flinstone! But it would give them more freedom for interpretation, than just COPY what was done before, and be tied to something that is basically irreplaceable anyway in our minds.
 
Humility is one of the things that takes actors the furthest, and helps with confidence more than anything else, specially when you got "directors" that can be so mental as .... to be insane. In general, the "great" directors, tend to allow actors to do anything they want, and you will find this a lot, and of course, many actors love that freedom! You can't tell me that musicians do not like that, which we know is not true, or Yehudi Menuhin, John McLaughlin, Egberto Gismonti and countless other musicians would not have come anywhere near what they have done.
 
One last thing ... I do not "intelectualize", most pop music. Not because I think it's "less", but in general, there is a lot more out there than just a song ... and that is the only distinction I make ... it needs to be more than a song for me.! 

Moshkito

UbiquitousBubba ... Speaking only for myself and the other musicians I've known personally over the years, the vast majority of us "doodle" on our instruments, experimenting with sounds and just playing for the fun of it....

 
I would never consider that this is not the case. Because I know it isn't the case.
 
 

He said he was talking about himself and the musician's he's known Pedro, so I would assume that it truly IS the case.  Oh, and your double negatives in that first sentence are probably saying the opposite of what you were trying to say. 
 
(BTW - This happens to be exactly my case as well.)

I'm sorry, folks. I knew better and I did it anyway. As I was typing, I thought, "Stop it. Stop it now," but I kept going. 
 
I intend no disrespect to anyone. The world is a big place, full of different ideas, philosophies, values, and opinions. Sometimes, we joke with one another in a mock-disparaging way that might appear on its surface to be rude or insulting. We joke about drummers, bassists, vocalists, etc., but we understand one another well enough to know that it's only a joke. As musicians, we are accustomed to working with other people with complimentary skill sets and expertise that differs from our own. As a result, most of us have a deep respect for other musicians, engineers, and producers. Many of us also have a healthy respect for the arts in general. For this reason, I think my reference to actors was misunderstood. I was using that view as an example, not saying that I personally view actors this way. Obviously, I failed to communicate this clearly. 
 
I would never dream about going into a forum for another form of artistic expression different from my own and then intentionally insulting the artists because they don't think the way that I want them to think or express their art as I see fit. Regardless how much I may know about that art form, I would never consider doing that. It would go against my values to do so. 
 
Pedro, when I wrote the earlier post, I wasn't trying to start an argument. I was merely trying to point out that fact that many musicians approach music from a much more creative and experimental place than you might realize. I know that my comments are not welcome, but I was not willing to let these general accusations go unanswered. I was not trying to change anyone's opinions or push my values on anyone else. I respect your values and your right to express your opinion, whether or not I agree with it. Obviously, you have a clear idea for how you want musicians to think and play. I'm sure it must be frustrating when they choose to think for themselves about how they will express their artistry. You may not think that it's insulting when you tell us that we're stupid, don't know how to be creative, or don't know what it means to be an artist, but it is. 
 
I'm sorry you have had such a bad experience with musicians and that you feel that your opinions are not receiving their due consideration. Speaking only for myself, I would not give much weight to anyone's opinions of how I should express myself as an artist. When I disregard someone's opinion of how I should think and create, it's because I have a mind of my own. It's not about the other person. It's about being true to my own vision.
 
I'm not interested in debating or arguing with you. In the interest of peace and harmony in the forum, I will try not to respond to any more of these posts. I hope you find some musicians to work with who share your ideas and can help you realize your vision. 

Hi,
 

ubiquitousBubba ... I was merely trying to point out that fact that many musicians approach music from a much more creative and experimental place than you might realize....

 
Ubi ... this is not right! Here you are justifying yourself and you are stating that all other arts do not have a creative and experimental place.
 
THEY ALL DO, except that telling you about it, as was the example with actors, has thrown you off ... you did not see the parallels.
 
That is not to say, EVER, and I gave my two examples of people that are far more experimental and unafraid than most musicians in the face of this earth, but they were ignored. Perhaps you do not know their work, but that's not a reason to invalidate what they do, or did!
 

ubiquitousBubba
... I know that my comments are not welcome, but I was not willing to let these general accusations go unanswered. ...

 
This is total crap. Your comments, or anyone else's are ALWAYS welcome. Stop that please!
 

ubiquitousBubba ... I'm sorry you have had such a bad experience with musicians and that you feel that your opinions are not receiving their due consideration....

 
Not at all. My experiences have been incredible and I have always written about them. The weird side of it, is the smaller and less "known" the folks are, the more "defensive" they get about anything said ... it is most bizarre ... and then some can not sit and have a fun discussion over a cup of coffee, about the funny cigars and bombers we once had ... whatever ... specially when it is about something that you will feel completely different about tomorrow as it is a different day!
 

ubiquitousBubba ... I will try not to respond to any more of these posts. I hope you find some musicians to work with who share your ideas and can help you realize your vision.

 
Sad. In the end, ALL of it, artistically or not, is about how we all communicate. And the only thing we do is find ways to NOT do so.
 
Totally sad! But I'm very appreciative of your comments, even if you think I'm wrong and was stating that you were wrong. I think your assumption about other arts is grossly out of order ... but your musicianship is not under question and you need to grow up over that! That is not a question about your musicianship and your abilities at all! It is a statement about your lack of knowledge about other arts.

Hey Sharke - I just saw a cool show on someone trying to authenticate a collage as being created by Frank Zappa (which they did, by the way, as confirmed by Frank Zappa's wife).
 
Anyway, I learned something about how Frank Zappa approached writing music, and it blew my mind.
 
He sees a music composition as a collection of pictures/drawings of things, almost like floating mobiles, of differing 'densities', where the densities are visual representations of the melodic lines and musical sections.  I mention it in this thread, to give you something you might try sometime - doodle up something that represents some musical ideas running around in your head, and use that to help you pull those ideas into a composition.
 
Just a thought, LOVED your doggy drawing, by the way - I really appreciate what you shared with us.
 
Bob Bone
 

robert_e_bone
Hey Sharke - I just saw a cool show on someone trying to authenticate a collage as being created by Frank Zappa (which they did, by the way, as confirmed by Frank Zappa's wife).
 
Anyway, I learned something about how Frank Zappa approached writing music, and it blew my mind.
 
He sees a music composition as a collection of pictures/drawings of things, almost like floating mobiles, of differing 'densities', where the densities are visual representations of the melodic lines and musical sections.  I mention it in this thread, to give you something you might try sometime - doodle up something that represents some musical ideas running around in your head, and use that to help you pull those ideas into a composition.
 
Just a thought, LOVED your doggy drawing, by the way - I really appreciate what you shared with us.
 
Bob Bone
 

Thanks Bob. I did read about that Zappa collage, and when you look at it it has Zappa written all over it. I know he didn't do the artwork for his album covers but they certainly had a common thread through them which was influenced by the whole Zappa experience, and that collage looks like it could have been a bit of Zappa album art. 
 
I think there is something to be said for seeing music visually. I certainly have these vague cloud-like images of music in my head, just rough lines and shapes following the contour of the pitch and like Zappa says, having different densities according to how dense the arrangement is. I've always associated music with shape, starting from the way I learned guitar which was seeing shapes on the fretboard. And oftentimes when writing in the piano roll I will be influenced by the shape of the notes as they pan out. It's all very interesting. 
 
I'm doodling a lot now and would definitely like to explore using the medium as a thought process to plan things out. I find it very relaxing and it really helps you think. Transferring any problem - whether personal, business or artistic - from the abstract shapes in your mind into visible shapes on a page, is incredibly helpful. I read a book about Mind Maps years ago and should have really stuck at it, because those things are an amazing way to organize things in your mind. 

Something else popped back into my dim memory a moment ago, about all of this.
 
About 30 years ago, I had an idea that through the use of mathematical formulas using something called a Fourier Series, musical frequencies could be converted to differing frequencies of light, and that one could create musical compositions based on colors of light, and colors of sound.
 
So if you REALLY want to get out there with your noodle doodles, you might be able to get some pretty far out there stuff.
 
And, I just wanted to say again that I REALLY like the doggy you drew.  :)
 
Bob Bone
 

robert_e_bone
About 30 years ago, I had an idea that through the use of mathematical formulas using something called a Fourier Series, musical frequencies could be converted to differing frequencies of light, and that one could create musical compositions based on colors of light, and colors of sound.

Sounds like a Jean Michael Jarre concert right there!

Tonight I thought I'd have a go at sketching something in pen, so I drew an old lady on a roller coaster. It didn't quite turn out like I'd hoped but it's kind of fun and it does make me smile when I look at it 
 
Fabrics, I have never got the hang of drawing. I'm really jealous of people who can render all of those folds and shadows with just a few scribbles. Keep trying.....
 

 
 
 

sharke
Tonight I thought I'd have a go at sketching something in pen, so I drew an old lady on a roller coaster. It didn't quite turn out like I'd hoped but it's kind of fun and it does make me smile when I look at it 
 
Fabrics, I have never got the hang of drawing. I'm really jealous of people who can render all of those folds and shadows with just a few scribbles. Keep trying.....
 

 
 Looks like a North Korean dictator to me. 
 

 
Still damn good though!