For beat makers, regarding 3rd party choices ...
 
If you have the recent upgrade to the AIR Music Tech instrument collection, in addition to the Strike 2 drum instrument and the Structure 2 sampler, you also have the Transfuser 2 VST2 (on sale at PIB until the end of the month for $25).
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around Transfuser 2 because I'm not sure what to call it. 
 
Based on some of the included presets, this thing seems to encompass all genres of rhythm based music, including R&B, Jazz, Trance, Dance, Fusion, etc.
 
Chord Sequencer, Phrase Sequencer, Drum Sequencer, Slice sequencer ... groove machine
 
It can manipulate, slice, and remix loops and sounds. Create and tweak grooves, chop up beats and phrases, time-stretch sounds, re-pitch notes, randomize sequences, and more – all on the fly.  Generates chords, melodies, variations, and grooves.  Comes with a premium drum and instrument library that includes 3,200+ loops and 1200+ drum machine samples.
 
AIR Transfuser 2 - Quick Look and Listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNMbqI--_ng
 
3 Tips on Creating Loops with AIR Music Tech Transfuser 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps87G6jBlO8
 
How to use AIR Music Tech Transfuser 2 to layer multiple loops
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3Z-rwJQbrk
 
5 Hot Tips For Using AIR Transfuser 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah7AcoK7ysc
 

tenfoot
I hold core Sonar users in much higher regard than your characterisation of guitarists who can do little more than push record and stop! That's clearly Pro Tools users:)

bladetragic
Please show me where I said anything of the sort?  This is why I don't think you got my point, because I never said this.

 
I guess I must have misinterpreted this:
 

bladetragic
As far as ignoring their base, how much more can they really develop for guitarists and people who record acoustic instruments?  Those people are essentially using Sonar as a tape recorder and mixer.  That's about as basic as a DAW can get. 

 

bladetragic
My point, as you seem to have again misinterpreted, is that there is LOTS there for guitarists/traditional musicians to do far more than "push record and stop" and get quite creative.  I've had a good amount of success as a producer "in this 21st century", some of which includes doing quite a bit of work WITH live guitarists, so I'm quite familiar with recording and producing with live/acoustic instruments in Sonar.  Trust me, my view is far from "short sighted".

 
Good to know:) Best of luck with getting that new Sampler!

If you're about to enter a new market space and will be directly up against a DAW that is known for having a capable sampler included with it, it might be a good time to consider adding a sampler or upgrading some of the older programs that could close the gap and fill the role of a sampler.
 
Will it be 100% necessary for all potential customers? No. But it can't hurt to show up to the party with something comparable instead of empty-handed, one less check box in favor of the old standby vs the new market entrant.

I can see that the beat buddies really want a sampler, but I'm confused about how they would use it in Sonar. Is it to be an offline tool to create or is it to be used live on stage to create on the fly.
 
Right now I don't think Sonar's audio engine and timeline are ready for live performance. If they were I'm sure Anderton would be using it for gigs. He uses Live for a reason. Adding a sampler would do nothing to make Sonar more capable at beat making during a live performance. It's simply not a DJ tool.
 
If you really want to dive deep into EDM then why not go with a program live Live. It seems to have been developed with this in mind.

bladetragic

AT

bladetragic

AT
Blade,
 
one of the good things about Cake is they try to be all things to all musicians.  Some of the bad things are also because of this - some times they come up with a feature or tool that kinda works but not fully (see the lists of problem children above).
 
They do try to expand their base, see P5, Matrix, Beatscape, cyclone etc.  But they can't afford to ignore their base, as with most DAWs, of guitarists/rockers/folkers who record and mix acoustic instruments at home.  As Anderton shows above, this is not a plurality, but a super majority of users and potential users.  Which is one reason they don't fool around with the crapshoot of programming effective software for those apps that make acoustic recording available at home where users don't have a drum room or isolated guitar booths.  See Guitar Rig, the various drum synths, etc.  They buy/lease working versions of those programs while synths and "beat" functions get done in-house.  If Matrix needs work, they can do that tomorrow and they aren't going to piss off a lot of users and lose them like they would if an Amp sim makes your guitar sound like flatulence so that Cake has to pay the programmers overtime to fix what they should have writ right the first time.  The Matrix, no, we'll put Joe on it next cycle.  If they lose a few customers, they are still a head. 70% or more don't care.  You screw up the drums, every one cares.
 
As far as other programs - SONAR splits the market with several of the other "big" DAWs.  Of the beat DAWs, Live! garners the serious crowd but FL Studio is the best ... you can't say seller since they have so many pirated copies... but at one point was the most used DAW of all.  If SONAR were free it would probably have more users, too.  If I was Cake I'd rather have 1/5 of 70% of the market plus 10% of the other 30% rather than the other way around.  And Cake is probably the best known of the PC DAWs since it remains a PC-only DAW. 
 
Cakewalk is a business and makes decisions based upon their own sustainability.  Keep the base happy and build on that.

A quick Google search will show you that pretty much all the major DAWs are pirated (including Sonar) so that's null and void.  FL Studio is PC only as well, so you kind of contradicted your own point (I'm assuming maybe you didn't know it was PC only).  And if you say FL "was the most used DAW of all", what does that tell you? Especially when you consider it's audio recording capabilities were relatively non-existent until fairly recently.
 
As far as ignoring their base, how much more can they really develop for guitarists and people who record acoustic instruments?  Those people are essentially using Sonar as a tape recorder and mixer.  That's about as basic as a DAW can get.  There is a ton of compressors, eqs, reverbs, melodyne, audiosnap, TH3, Guitar Rig 4 (from older versions, if you have them), AD2, etc.  I would say that group is covered extremely well at this point.

FL was PC only?  I was sure I used it on the Mac I never had.  And of course everything is pirated, including SONAR.  If you want to nitpick what I said, that ain't my problem. 
 
But it was only a few years back when FL was the most used DAW and most, if not many of those copies were pirated.  Cakewalk never had to put out an update so that pirated versions couldn't load any user songs, but FL did.  That was some fun on the FL Forums with all the newbies asking why they couldn't play their beats.  What that tells me is a bunch of kids with PCs stole FL Studio because it seemed so easy and available and made some beats before they went back to gaming and porno.  Can you tell me what is your point is?  That Fl Studio was the leading DAW because it did beats and if Cake just followed their lead they, too, could be the most stolen DAW in the world?  
 
I am actually on your side of wanting more electronic tools and improvements in the ones we have, and you are slagging me for pointing out reasons Cakewalk maybe isn't replacing SONAR with a new Fruity Loops DAW that you and I (and others) would love but lose most users. 
 
@

I'm not slagging you.  Maybe it seems that way, but I'm really not.  You said Cake is the best known of the PC Daws, but if FL is (or was recently) the most used (your words) and is PC only then that's simply not true.  That's not really to "nitpick" your words, but more so to show more evidence that the "beat making"/electronic crowd seems to be the market driving the DAW world for whatever reason. 
 
As for the piracy part, I just simply don't agree with your perspective there.  You're basically alluding to the point that FL is only popular b/c of piracy.  Even with piracy, there is still a choice.  Actually even more so, because price is no longer a factor.  It's just a matter of which one you like most.  Not which one is more cost effective.  If all DAWs are pirated equally (which they are) why are more people reaching for FL and not Sonar?  Imo, that says something if a DAW that is focused on beat making, electronic music production, and didn't even properly record audio until recently is the most (or one of the most) used DAWs. Whether the copies are stolen or not, the fact is more people are using it even though they could be using Sonar.  I just don't think you can so easily dismiss that. I personally know people who have made millions b/c of the music they created in FL.  They definitely were not porn watching kids playing video games.  They were young producers who didn't have a lot of money , but were serious about their craft and they had to start somewhere. And it seems they were not alone, b/c the list of hit records made with FL is VERY long.
 
Not to mention, the DAW that seems like it may have surpassed FL in popularity at this point (Ableton) is also very producer/electronic music focused.  This was all in response to the notion that the user base is guitar players and acoustic musicians, that this is the largest base of users out there, and that Cake adding a sampler may detract from targeting this "core" user base.  So, if two of the most popular, if not THE two most popular DAWs (neither of which has been around as long as Cake) are focused on a totally different user base yet have managed to pass Sonar in popularity, then common sense would say that perhaps they (Cake) may want to take a hard look at finding a way to tap into that user base.  My original suggestion of adding a sampler is just one way I think they could begin to do that.  Because honestly, whatever their target audience is currently doesn't really seem to be gaining them any huge strides in the race.

I agree to 100 % . It's like you wrote it out of my mind. Someone on the Internet wrote on Youtube that he tried Sonar but it's a "Daw Dinosaur" and he switched to Fl Studio 12. Now with the new Dark Theme it looks more modern than before. I am honest, i hate MIDI Note editing/placing in Sonar, but it doesn't mean nobody likes it but with the Midi Editing view i can't be creative . It looks old and not intuitive. I like the Mixer View and the Aux Tracks and the Routing. My Overall perception is that the workflow and Frameworks is not so fluid like in FL Studio or Studio One(there are fluid Visuals in both but Sonar has some lagging in drawing graphics and because of that it feels old). I own them too.
 
First i liked Drop Zone. I made a few Tracks with it in Sonar X3 32 Bit. After switching to Sonar Platinum 64 Bit my Tracks where i used Dropzone and are frozen have a Delay(a known bug of bitbridge -which it looks like it has no priority to be fixed)are useless.
I searched for another Sampler which works under 64 Bits and i had to replace DropZone. Who wants to do such Things? Nobody.
Also Studio One has simple controls to set the Groove of the Drums or Samples. It's direct above the Notes, also Transient Detection and editing. In Sonar you have to go to the Top of the Daw to the Menu and have to klick several times until you are in a menu where you can set the Quantize Options or for the Transients you have to Start the Audio Snap Palette extra. Complicated Paths to menus or Workarounds for things other Daws can quick are also not appealing. My view on Sonar ist the view of a Customer who makes electronic Music and has other methods on Track making than for example guitar Players and Vocalists which are recording directly into the daw.
 
Never mind. I am no troll. This is stuff which is bothering me and this critical stuff is contructing a way to other daws. I don't want to pay for lifetime Updates for Sonar for mainly Bugfixing. Instead i bought FL Studio 12 Producer Edition for 185 Euros with Lifetime Updates and a modern Toolset. That has to ring Alarm Bells.
 
But maybe i am not in the right customer target Group. 
 
 

Seriously...every program has its own personality and functionality. If one program did everything that everyone wanted, it would have 100% market share, it's all we would use, and there would be nothing else.
 
Just because Adele sold 25 million CDs doesn't mean anyone who wants a career in music should try and sound like Adele. Bob Dylan has never been a big seller in terms of albums sold, yet he has been an incredibly influential artist who was recently awarded a Nobel prize.
 
I think it was wise for Adele not to try and sound like Bob Dylan so she could win a Nobel prize, and for Bob Dylan not to try and sound like Adele so he could sell 25 million records.
 
Find a tool you like, then use it. If you need more than one tool, that's okay too. If a tool comes really really close to what you want but doesn't have everything you want, you have three choices:
 

• Hope that it adds the features you want, realizing there are no guarantees
• Keep using it while you seek workarounds
• Switch to a different program

 
Is that really such a weird concept?
 
Finally, I know for a fact that Cakewalk has some very interesting plans for elements that would be ideal for beat musicians. However they are not going to slavishly copy anyone else. 
 
It reminds me of Live when they added MIDI. I told Gerhard "Don't do it!! You've nailed the audio thing. If you do MIDI, people will ask for event lists, and notation, and sys ex storage, and you won't be that minimalist program that's great for live performance!"
 
He looked at me and said "Don't worry, Craig. We do it in the Ableton way." And they did. They didn't copy anyone else. 
 
SONAR will do its next beats-oriented features the Cakewalk way. Some people will think it's fantastic (I can hardly wait) and others will say "Why doesn't it have a sampler?"

Anderton
 
Finally, I know for a fact that Cakewalk has some very interesting plans for elements that would be ideal for beat musicians.

I hope these plans make it to fruition. You have my attention.
 

Anderton
 
SONAR will do its next beats-oriented features the Cakewalk way. Some people will think it's fantastic (I can hardly wait) and others will say "Why doesn't it have a sampler?"

 
I hope this isn't a telegraph.

A sample is a sample... 3rd party or not, with the exception of some propriatary files such as the ones used by Native Instruments and Propellerhead, and some others.

You should be able to import most formats... .wav, sfz, mp3.

If you are looking for a drag and drop type environment, try he Matrix View/ Player. There you can create sets and drop your one-shots and loops. It isn't Ableton but Sonar was not designed to work that way, which is why most artists doing EDM or other genres that rely heavily on loops and samples, use Ableton.

If anyone paid attention to this method of thinking, then neither CW nor any other company would bother to develop anything at all.. yet they do :)
 

BobF
I have a prediction.  If Cake released a basic sampler (S5) as a core component of SONAR with feature set X:
 
Someone would immediately request a sub forum dedicated to Feature Requests for S5
 
Group A would be happy
 
Group B would feel that another 7 features would be necessary to make it as usable as the sampler in DAW Whatever
 
Group C would think that Cake completely missed the mark altogether
 
Group D would agree with B, except their list is 4 features completely different from the 7 identified by Group B
 
Continue for groups E thru Z, plus Group A which has now decided that the workflow for S5 is all wrong
 
The only way ALL groups would be happy with the features is if S5 included every feature found in every other sampler on the market.

AT
(Snip) ... So, how bout a fly out panel for each matrix cell for editing the included sample/loop?  Not just loop on/off etc., but the sample itself, length and beat matching?  And SFZ EQ etc. for each cell sample so you can tweak it that way (visually, of course).  And further Scratchpad like control over each pad. There are plenty of ways to make the matrix an alternative to Live!, it is all there. (Snip again) ...  I would love a sampler, even a simple built-in one. I'd love a stereo editor, even a simple built-in one.  I'd love a better Matrix designed more for live performance than as an arrangement tool.

You have some very good ideas here.  I hope you'll present them as suggested new features so people can support with up votes.