It seems that this thread has split in opposite directions. Geist is actually more than a sampler, is a sampler sequencer a la MPC. It actually samples itself (more than Kontakt can boast), and has a multitrack sequencer that also outputs MIDI to the external world. It is a great tool, but it would not make much sense for Cakewalk to provide something alike within Sonar, IMHO, since many features would overlap with Sonar's own sequencing and loop handling. I vote again for a simple sampler, an improved Dropzone.

What would be great would be some improved loop slicing. I was thinking that something like "Slice to Matrix" that would automatically send MIDI to Matrix View like a step sequencer pattern and inserted a new Dropzone with the mapped slices would be awesome.

Also a Dropzone fan, meets my needs.  Although improvements are always welcome!!

forkol

Anderton

bladetragic
@forkol
 
Well stated.  The stair/elevator analogy was spot on.

I disagree. It's not that there's the choice of either you use a particular elevator or you use the stairs. You can use the VST elevator instead of either one.

No, in this case, now you want me to pay to install and use my own elevator, or just be content using the stairs, when other buildings the same height on the same block have a operable elevator that I can use without extra cost.

 
This is why analogies are worthless. The reason why other programs have particular functionalities at "no extra cost" is because they're not spending money on functionality that SONAR includes at no extra cost. You could just as easily go into the forums for other programs and ask why they force users to spend money on vocal alignment, linear-phase mastering tools, console emulation, tape emulation, multitrack REX file players, etc. After all, SONAR has them at no extra cost...so shouldn't they have those features at no extra cost? How much should companies be willing to raise their price point to satisfy every possible group of users?
 

Again, and I don't know how many times I have to say it, but Sharke pointed it out exactly:  VST/VSTi does not address integration/workflow.  I have Geist, and although it's useful, you still can't do an operation like, auto split beat at transients

 
Well, you can do that in SONAR. AudioSnap, the Step Sequencer, loop creation/editing, creating "faux" REX files, and the Matrix view are all integrated into SONAR. So are the existing samplers and REX playback devices (e.g., dragging the MIDI files behind the REX audio or drum patterns into SONAR, and drop-and-drag audio). By definition, ReWired applications are integrated into SONAR. And even with outboard samplers, you can usually do drag and drop.
 
It would be helpful to have examples of specific workflow elements you think SONAR needs. Workflow is a very squishy and subjective term. If SONAR is to incorporate particular workflows in upcoming updates, Cakewalk needs to know what those are. What specific workflow would an integrated sampler do that can't be done with a VST?

Anderton
Well, you can do that in SONAR. AudioSnap,
...
It would be helpful to have examples of specific workflow elements you think SONAR needs. Workflow is a very squishy and subjective term. If SONAR is to incorporate particular workflows in upcoming updates, Cakewalk needs to know what those are. What specific workflow would an integrated sampler do that can't be done with a VST?

May be some people think I am just "against sampler integration" in this thread. I am really not. I have just asked the same question, but there was no answers (I mean what concrete enhancements people want to see to better support samplers, may be external).
 
Playing a bit with TX16 and following some proposals in this thread:
* I have enabled AudioSnap, detected transients and pressed "split". So I see N clips.
* I have d&d them all into TX16, and they was mapped to keys, but...
each of these clips is really a copy of the whole original clip, non destructively resized. Clips "current" boundaries was lost during d&d, so each key in TX16 plays the whole clip.
Bouncing all clips at once produce one big clip again. Bouncing each clip separately before d&d produce the result I want, but a bit boring... Do I miss something?

A very long thread indeed.
 
Cakewalk has stated that everyone one will get the benefit of core program improvements. Extra features are supposed to become purchased add-ons. We haven't seen this yet but I'm inclined to think that a sampler would be a perfect add-on for stand alone sales. Then they could charge for it but would have to compete with Kontakt, Geist or whatever sampler you want to use. I wonder if people would pony up the cash for that. I also wonder if Cakewalk really wants to go into competition with companies that have been devoted to sampling for years.
 
I really can't see how the company could justify the risk or expense at this time. The Mac program is way more important and Sonar still needs some work on core functions. I also noted that there are DAWs available that do the sample stuff right now. Why would people wait for months or years when they can go out and buy a solution today?
 
Anyone care to answer those questions?

Anderton
 How much should companies be willing to raise their price point to satisfy every possible group of users?

Enough not to have to satisfy every group, but enough so that you are serving your customer base and can make a reasonable profit?  If Cakewalk can do that and not provide a sampler, then so be it, I'm fine with that.  But as this thread points out, it's something of interest.  And looking forward to the MAC release, I think it's critical to have in order to effectively compete against the big guys over on that side of the fence.  But, that's just my opinion, may not be worth much.
 

forkolAgain, and I don't know how many times I have to say it, but Sharke pointed it out exactly:  VST/VSTi does not address integration/workflow.  I have Geist, and although it's useful, you still can't do an operation like, auto split beat at transients

 

AndertonWell, you can do that in SONAR. AudioSnap, the Step Sequencer, loop creation/editing, creating "faux" REX files, and the Matrix view are all integrated into SONAR. So are the existing samplers and REX playback devices (e.g., dragging the MIDI files behind the REX audio or drum patterns into SONAR, and drop-and-drag audio). By definition, ReWired applications are integrated into SONAR. And even with outboard samplers, you can usually do drag and drop.

 
You cut off the last part of my quote, which was critical.  It was:

I have Geist, and although it's useful, you still can't do an operation like, auto split beat at transients, and load into Geist from a audio clip.

 
Azslow3 pointed out the problem, you have to trim down every sample to get rid of the unwanted part of the clip.  
I'd like it so it's automated to slice and move to sampler.  
 

Anderton
It would be helpful to have examples of specific workflow elements you think SONAR needs. Workflow is a very squishy and subjective term. If SONAR is to incorporate particular workflows in upcoming updates, Cakewalk needs to know what those are. What specific workflow would an integrated sampler do that can't be done with a VST?

 
As noted above.  Further, it would need to put the slices in a Midi or Instrument track as part of the audio split and map. I don't think you can do that with a VST directly, you would need to either setup to record MIDI output.  But, I'm not super versed in with what the VST2/VST3 interface can do, so maybe it's possible.  

azslow3
Playing a bit with TX16 and following some proposals in this thread:
* I have enabled AudioSnap, detected transients and pressed "split". So I see N clips.

 
Next, turn off AudioSnap, select all the split clips, and choose Clips > Apply Trimming. Now when you drag them, the clip boundaries will be retained.
 

Okay, what if I proposed to Cakewalk an integrated, sampling-based instrument something like the following:
 
1. You drag in an Acidized Groove clip.
2. The instrument automatically slices it at the transients defined by the Groove Clip.
3. You could drag any slice to any of 16 pads (if it was just a standard WAV file, you could split at transients using AudioSnap, then drag them in like Alexey mentioned with the TX16W...not quite as "automatic," but it would work).
4. You could assign those pads to a 4 x 4 MPC-style pad hardware controller if you wanted, or trigger them at the instrument if you didn't have a suitable controller. 
 
As extras, it would be cool if could stack multiples samples on each pad, change pad pitch/level/pan, and have separate audio outputs for each pad (not that difficult, a lot of samplers and drum machines let you have individual outputs for each sound).
 
It would be even cooler if you could have a step sequencer built into the instrument itself, or click on something that opens up SONAR's step sequencer if you wanted to take things further...
 
Seems to me this would do what a lot of what people want.

ampfixer
 
Anyone care to answer those questions?

I'm only seeing the one question at the end, and I can only speak for myself.
 
I'm not sitting on my hands and waiting for Cakewalk to sort me out. I have a number of samplers -- both paid and free. I have not asked for, nor do I expect, anything for free. I don't think the OP has either, but I'm not going to reread the thread.
 
Integrated does not equal free, in my book. Of course, I would welcome a sampler as a Platinum perk or however Cakewalk wants to roll it out. It will be interesting to see how the paid add-ons manifest.
 

Anderton
Okay, what if I proposed to Cakewalk an integrated, sampling-based instrument something like the following:

Looks good to me. Thank you for putting the list together.

ampfixer
Cakewalk has stated that everyone one will get the benefit of core program improvements. Extra features are supposed to become purchased add-ons. We haven't seen this yet but I'm inclined to think that a sampler would be a perfect add-on for stand alone sales. Then they could charge for it but would have to compete with Kontakt, Geist or whatever sampler you want to use. I wonder if people would pony up the cash for that. I also wonder if Cakewalk really wants to go into competition with companies that have been devoted to sampling for years.

 
I don't think they have to really develop to the level of Kontakt or Geist.  Have a look at Live's Simpler/Sampler, Studio One 3's Presence XT/Impulse, and Logic's EXS24 for reference.  As others have mentioned, Beatscape was close, and they still have Cyclone and DropZone code.  It's probably old and unusable code, but they resurrected Z3ta and Rapture, and I would conjecture that developing a basic sampler would not be too much more difficult than a re-code of Z3ta or Rapture was.  As for pay, it depends.  If the sampler could be integrated and do the things I would like to do, sure I would pay for it.  Just as I have paid for Zeta2, Rapture, P5, Rapture Pro, various ProChannel modules, training, books, loops and samples all from Cakewalk. As a matter of fact, it's about the only way Cakewalk will get more money from me now that I am lifetime sub.
 

ampfixer 
I really can't see how the company could justify the risk or expense at this time. The Mac program is way more important and Sonar still needs some work on core functions. I also noted that there are DAWs available that do the sample stuff right now. Why would people wait for months or years when they can go out and buy a solution today?

I think the greater risk is porting Sonar to Mac.  It's going to be a very tough marketplace, but I feel they have to do it, but I also feel it's hard to justify going up against Logic with its price point and feature set.  And you could make the same argument about MAC-based DAW's that you make about providing a sampler.  They can buy Logic today, why wait for Sonar?  And the cost of failure is much higher with a Mac port than a basic sampler. 
 
Also, I own a license to Live, and I bought it for only one thing:  Audio warping.  I also own Bitwig and may pickup Studio One 3 and have a look.  I have Sonar because I've used it since its Pro Audio days, and I also do other music styles like cinematic.  So, nobody's waiting.  However, this forum discussion is about if people think Sonar needs a sampler.  Some of us think so. Some think not.  Either way, I'm going to continue making music with whatever tools fit my needs.