2015/04/18 03:13:42
craigb
Never understood that thinking in a forum.  Once had a guy in another forum who actually quit after years of involvement because he got into an online argument about beer.  He thought Budweiser was horrible (it is), but one other guy just happened to say that he likes it.  Then the usual opinion contest and the first guy quit in a huff.  Really, that was all there was to it!  Go figure.
2015/04/18 03:19:02
dubdisciple
come on, dude.  Seriously? Just because a few people have a different take, you equate that to hostility?  i can probably count on one hand the number of times someone on these forums has agreed with me about a serious topic but i never assume hostility unless they make it very clear. i read the articles you posted and the issue is still not so black and white to me. I'm considered by society to be a reasonably intelligent guy and i am sure you are as well.  I think it's obvious that plenty of intelligent people can read the exact same material and form different opinions. 
 
If you really are leaving (and honestly, it is rare when people who make grand exits on the Internet really stay away), i wish you the best, but i also hope you one day realize that it is only natural for people to have different opinions than you without it being something ugly or malicious.  best of luck
2015/04/18 03:26:17
sharke
My brother deactivates his Facebook account when he splits up with a girl. It suddenly appears again a few weeks later. 
 
I had a friend back in the UK whom I'd known for 20 years and never had a cross word with him, launch into a tirade of rabid abuse and hatred because of some trivial offhand political comment I made on FB that he disagreed with. Told me never to set foot in the UK again, that sort of thing, and unfriended me. LOL! Life's way too short for that kind of nonsense. 
2015/04/18 05:53:11
paulo
craigb
Never understood that thinking in a forum.  Once had a guy in another forum who actually quit after years of involvement because he got into an online argument about beer.  He thought Budweiser was horrible (it is), but one other guy just happened to say that he likes it.  Then the usual opinion contest and the first guy quit in a huff.  Really, that was all there was to it!  Go figure.




To be fair, there's generally no point in talking to anyone who thinks a Bud is a suitable replacement for a beer.
2015/04/18 06:02:40
craigb
paulo
craigb
Never understood that thinking in a forum.  Once had a guy in another forum who actually quit after years of involvement because he got into an online argument about beer.  He thought Budweiser was horrible (it is), but one other guy just happened to say that he likes it.  Then the usual opinion contest and the first guy quit in a huff.  Really, that was all there was to it!  Go figure.




To be fair, there's generally no point in talking to anyone who thinks a Bud is a suitable replacement for a beer.




Good point!
2015/04/18 14:29:52
slartabartfast
sharke
I appreciate your points slartabartfast, but if you read my posts closely you will see that I was commenting specifically on SongCraft's comment that the bill also affects Spotify and other streaming sites, not broadcast radio. I have not read the bill, but since Spotify already pays performing artists for every stream, it's not clear what is meant by this. I can only assume that the bill seeks to make Spotify pay more to artists than the current rate.  SongCraft went on to suggest that sites like Spotify would have to change their business model to "adapt," if they didn't want to "fade away" (i.e. go out of business). If this is the case then I oppose it as I would oppose any attempt by government to interfere with a business's prices. 
 
A quick Googling around left me in the dark too - all the articles I've read seem to be quite vague about what it means for Spotify. Perhaps either you or SongCraft could enlighten me to this end. 




I can not speak to Spotify specifically, but if you and the newly departed SongCraft were to have a serious discussion, you would both need to do a great deal more homework to understand the issue. I recognize that a pseudo-religious animosity to any government intervention in the market may make understanding the issues moot, but I take your question in good faith.
 
The main thrust of the bill is to return copyright protection to recordings when they are played on broadcast radio. There is some overlap in what is considered broadcasting, the law treats a service like internet radio differently than it does on demand streaming or downloads. The distinction being that if the broadcaster chooses the playlist, and everyone receives the same song at the same time, that is broadcasting ("nonsubscription broadcast transmission"), even if the medium is the internet rather than radio waves. If the user chooses the song to download that is online streaming (single play) "subscription" distribution. So to the extent that online services have successfully been claiming to be broadcasting (operating an internet "radio station") and thus not paying recording owners anything for playing recordings, they would have to do so. 
 
Another issue arises from the history of recording rights in copyright.Before there was technology to record sound, the copyright statutes did not envision that it would arrive, so when it became possible to record music, the copyright law protected the songwriters and the publishers of paper music, but was mute on the rights of the creators of recordings. Early cases involved protection for the punched paper used in player pianos, and the courts over a number of years made decisions based on the logical extension of rights to this new technology. State legislatures in some cases provided specific protection, and eventually the federal copyright law did recognize the right to collect revenue from the recording rights (as was previously done for the author rights) in a recording. This was included in the Copyright Act of 1976, but it provided protection only to recordings created after 1972. By that time there was a large amount of recorded music out there, some still very popular, but since the law did not include them, they could be used in many commercial ways without paying their creators. This new bill would extend federal protections to those older recordings. So if a non-subscription streaming service were to have a catalog of old recordings that it was serving up to users without paying for the recording rights, that would change. As you noted previously, Spotify pays for other audio streaming rights already.
 
A third issue arises from how Spotify and other music services pay for their recording rights. As others have noted it is rarely the performer who is paid, but usually the owner of the recording rights. Spotify has deals with a number of major record companies, and in many such deals there is a metered payment to the record company without any reference to who played the music that was recorded. In many cases contracts between the performer and the record company make it unlikely that performers will ever see much from these deals. Studio musicians, engineers and producers are often doing "work for hire" and have zero rights in the final product. The bill does not give such hired performers any new rights. In a some cases the bill would require payments be distributed to performers where a "statutory license" is used (actually where the work is eligible for such licensing). Currently that would be a non-interactive service like internet radio. How that would actually play out is murky. Assuming that the section applies, it would specify a division of license fees between the recording company and various types of free agent musicians who performed the recording, some of whom are being paid nothing now.
 
the bill:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/1733/text
 
Title 17 USC which the bill amends and more:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/circ92.pdf
 
A pretty understandable summary:
http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=f67da04a-b8df-49c8-8327-7bed8f266e9b
 
A very complete and balanced survey of the issues involved:
http://copyright.gov/docs/musiclicensingstudy/copyright-and-the-music-marketplace.pdf
 
2015/04/18 14:34:29
michaelhanson
sharke
I had a friend back in the UK whom I'd known for 20 years and never had a cross word with him, launch into a tirade of rabid abuse and hatred because of some trivial offhand political comment I made on FB that he disagreed with. Told me never to set foot in the UK again, that sort of thing, and unfriended me. LOL! Life's way too short for that kind of nonsense. 




I find that happening a lot these days as well, Sharke.  People can't seem to have a civil debate on any subject without it launching into all out war, for what seems to be minor differences in opinion.  It seems to now be the norm at work as well. 
 
As for forums, Facebook, social media....people seem to jump to conclusions that they are being attacked on something when all you are doing is seeing something from another angle, or suggesting that there may be another angle.  I find it amusing that people actually take forums and social media that seriously. 
 
I mean.....this is the Coffee House after all. 
2015/04/18 14:58:04
gcolbert
People were more civil when disputes like this were settled with pistols at ten paces.
 
I'm not an artist, but I have friends who are.  I don't discount that there needs to be some equitable way to compensate the wonderful and talented people who create the music I love, but the majority of what I listen to comes from independents who would probably not benefit one way or the other from anything discussed on this thread. 
 
Probably not worth the shot and gun powder.
2015/04/18 15:11:42
SteveStrummerUK
 
I once had a difference of opinion with a forum host...
 
I went to a lot of trouble to lay out a polite, rational and fact-enhanced argument to support my particular point of view.
 
Instead of offering up a similarly researched and logically presented counter-argument, the host in question told me that "This is the second time you have taken issue with a post of mine. Keep it up and it will be seen as harassment".
 
This is the very same host that recently stated:
 
"I like freedom. I want everyone to have as much as I have. I do not subscribe to censorship. I think in the mall of ideas if everyone can voice their own view the truth will in the end win. It can be difficult to separate the good from the bad but I rather we have the right to make up our own minds rather then someone else making it up for us.
 
Maybe this is not a view a host should have but its how I look at things. I trust people to behave well and not post attacks on another. However when an attack does occur hosts will respond. Outside of that an idea never hurt anyone. Just the adaption of bad ideas have caused trouble.
 
If an idea is good it will endure and grow."
 
By my reckoning, there seems to be quite a discrepancy here.
 
Or in other words, we appear to be being told that "You have the freedom to express any opinion you like, as long as it's something this particular host doesn't disagree with it".
 
Such blatant hypocrisy, you just couldn't make it up.
 
 
 
 
2015/04/18 15:31:09
michaelhanson
Just last week a VP at our company pooled together a group of us managers to give him feedback on a new product that he was in the middle of designing.  The small group of managers quickly noticed many design flaws in what was being worked on in this design.  As we suggested some of the issues the design caused....he got more and more upset.  As suggestions and better ideas were presented...he looked on the verge of exploding. 
 
Years ago I would have kept egging that situation on and probably would have alienated myself or gotten myself fired.  In fact, I did get canned once over not backing down over being right about an issue.  I stood my ground and I was proud of it.  I found myself looking for another job, however.  These days, at 53 years old...it just aint worth it.  I spoke my piece in the meeting.  This VP said that the product was to far along to make these types of changes.  He was warned.  It will be his butt on the line if it doesn't work.  He went against the grain of years worth of experience, with the combined front line managers that were in this meeting. 
 
I guess I've learned that life is not fare and to choose my battles wisely.
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