Jeff Evans


By orchestra I was referring to all the VST's you are using to create the sound of the orchestra. I assume you are using multiple VST's with perhaps multiple outputs. I was suggesting sending everything into the convolution reverb at a similar level and then returning that to your mix. That is the 'room'. 

That convolution reverb though has to be nice and you might have to spend time finding the right sounding room as well. And edit it too for final adjustments.

I agree that percussion can sometimes lack definition as a result of this too but the great thing about this is that I assume you are using different VST's or outputs for the percussion alone so you can send a little less of those parts into the room to improve that. Or perhaps the percussion parts into a second reverb that maybe is a little smaller and less of. 

The thing is that you never really hear an orchestra dry. Live it is usually in a rather large space and that adds its own thing to the sound. Even studio recordings of orchestras are in large spaces too and that tends to keep things a bit larger sounding. They can add reverb to studio recordings too and they do.

I also find panning everything as you would see it at a live concert also helps.

Ah, I see where you're going with this.  For many composers, the end-game is to sound identical, or as close to identical as a live ensemble.  This to me is absurd.  Here is why:
 
1.  There is no comparision between a live ensemble and a MIDI recording.   The psycho-social energies of live players interacting together is not duplicatable electronically.   Also, the aural experience in a live hall is, due to the countless early reflections, not something that can be duplicated with two speakers (perhaps surround can get closer, but I choose not to work in surround). 
 
2.  Panning "everything" as a live orchestra would sit (placement of the players) is also a trap.  First, not all orchestras set up the same way.  Some have 1st and 2nd violins on one side, some don't.  But a more important reason, again, comes down to the difference between the acoustic aural experience and the experience of listening through stereo speakers or headphones.  I find, for example it is much more effective to have 1st violins on one side of the stereo field, and 2nd violins on the other because when they're playing contrapuntally, the lines achieve a higher level of transparency, something I value in my music.
 
Where a comparision gets interesting to me is a comparison between a recording of a live orchestra and a recording of a virtual orchestra.   We're getting closer every year.   My first sampler had a violin patch that consisted of around 3 or 4 samples.  The VSL solo violin I use (not in the 4th movement of my new symphony) consists of over 22,000 samples.  So rather than aim for the unachievable goal of duplicating a live orchestra, I look at MIDI as its own medium, with its own strengths and weaknesses.  In the same way that photography was first thought of as a "mockup" for painters in the 19th century, very few people in those days knew that photography was going to become its own medium, and it has certainly, in the past 100 years, earned its place as a fine art. 
 
If any of you are in the San Francisco Bay area, you might want to attend my workshop in May called "Beyond the MIDI Mockup", sponsored by the Manhattan Producer's Alliance and the San Francisco Center for New Music (www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm).
 
Jerry
 
 

foxwolfen


I find a lot of educated composers create music like this. It is something I see constantly at the Composers Forum. While technically correct, it is utterly without art or beauty. Sterile. You cannot write music with your brain. Music does not come from the brain. Just my opinion. I am going to use you as an example of something that is also my opinion. If you are writing music simply to please yourself, then you have no need to post it. If you are writing music to please your audience, then you should pay attention to what they are saying. If your audience is saying the brass is too present, and there is no sense of space.. then the brass is too present and there is no sense of space.

That is utter nonsense.   Who's ears do you actually trust?   Music does come from the brain, where else does it come from?  By "brain" I mean imagination, feeling, intuition, musical logic, passion, the desire to communicate, the desire to create something beautiful, the openness and the desire to discover something new, something beautiful.   Perhaps this is semantics, but I hardly think I could write music without having a brain.  My music is not "technically correct".   It is what I hear, it is about what I want to say and how I want to say it.   If other people have insightful criticism that can actually benefit me, I am all ears.  I am open to constructive criticism, as I, and everyone else, has a lot more to learn.   That's just the nature of being a human being.  But I also have an excellent "BS detector" and I also recognize when people are posturing, tossing off casual opinions without the slightest self-awareness of how subjective their opinions really are.    Funny thing is, though I have been composing for almost 45 years, professionally and for my own artistic needs, and I have a college degree in classical music theory and composition, I never offer my opinion unless I understand what the composer is trying to achieve, unless the composer asks me for my opinion, or unless I am paid to give my opinion, which I often am.   I just assume the composer is doing exactly what he (she) wants to be doing in terms of their style and aesthetic, so who am I to intervene and say "do it a different way"?.   Since I am doing what I want to be doing, and doing it the best way I know how, I don't benefit much from casual opinions.  When I want real, professional opinions, I go to people I trust or I pay professionals.   One of the things I have learned to do (after going through a period where I thought because of my expertise I had the right to offer my opinions) is to listen to music just to enjoy it, with no agenda of having to tell the composer what's wrong with his piece, without having to nitpik and pretend that if the composer listens to me his music will have no flaws.  It is quite liberating!  Listen up people, all music has flaws, all recordings have flaws and all human beings have flaws. 
 
JG

mike_mccue


Jerry,

Can you share some of the thought process you use when you lay out your song form and changes?

Do you just start at the beginning and plow forward or do you come up with something like an outline or frame work and then flesh it in?

Where do you get the ideas to fly the different instruments in as you do?

I'm just sort of curious about your working and conceptualization process.


best regards,
mike

It's all trial-and-error Mike.  I start off generally with a template of the instruments I want to write for. I improvise on the piano, I think about how I want the piece to begin, but sometimes it all just happens spontaneously.  I usually start at the beginning and just compose.  But, I often go back 20, 30, or even 100 measures earlier to revise and edit.  In fact, for me composition is as much abou re-working passages and editing as it is about creating music.  
 
A symphonic movement is usually not quite "song-form".   I distinguish between form (preexisting traditional forms such as song-form, rondo, theme and variations, sonata form, etc.) and Form (with a capital F).  Form in this sense means to me that the form grows intuitively, organically, naturally out of the content.  There is no imposing form on the piece, the piece more or less suggests its form to me based on the material that already has been written.   This is my 31st symphonic movement, and there is no formula or method that I use that can be applied.   Its all about deep listening, imagining, writing, evaluating, re-writing, re-writing and making something good better. 
 
I hope this helps!
 
Jerry

foxwolfen


If you are writing music simply to please yourself, then you have no need to post it. If you are writing music to please your audience, then you should pay attention to what they are saying. 

Oh really?  Says who?  I write music to please myself.  I assume if I am not pleased with it than nobody else will be either.  Pleasing the audience is a by-product, not a goal.  The "audience" consists of individuals, and everyone is different, everyone hears differently, has different tastes, etc.  Bad composers strive to please their audience, good composers follow their own path, and risk being ignored or misunderstood.  That's the risk of being in the arts.   If you don't have enough intellectual/artistic courage to take that risk, maybe you shouldn't consider being a composer, because you probably won't be a good one.  Your generalization about "educated" composers is too broad to make any sense.   I know 10 educated composers and each one approaches their work differently than the other.  
 
Jg

Thanks Jerry some nice and interesting thoughts there.

Superb. Really enjoyed that, thanks.

jsg

mike_mccue


Jerry,

Can you share some of the thought process you use when you lay out your song form and changes?

Do you just start at the beginning and plow forward or do you come up with something like an outline or frame work and then flesh it in?

Where do you get the ideas to fly the different instruments in as you do?

I'm just sort of curious about your working and conceptualization process.


best regards,
mike

It's all trial-and-error Mike.  I start off generally with a template of the instruments I want to write for. I improvise on the piano, I think about how I want the piece to begin, but sometimes it all just happens spontaneously.  I usually start at the beginning and just compose.  But, I often go back 20, 30, or even 100 measures earlier to revise and edit.  In fact, for me composition is as much abou re-working passages and editing as it is about creating music.  
 
A symphonic movement is usually not quite "song-form".   I distinguish between form (preexisting traditional forms such as song-form, rondo, theme and variations, sonata form, etc.) and Form (with a capital F).  Form in this sense means to me that the form grows intuitively, organically, naturally out of the content.  There is no imposing form on the piece, the piece more or less suggests its form to me based on the material that already has been written.   This is my 31st symphonic movement, and there is no formula or method that I use that can be applied.   Its all about deep listening, imagining, writing, evaluating, re-writing, re-writing and making something good better. 
 
I hope this helps!
 
Jerry

Hi Jerry, 
 Thanks so much for elaborating. Your description of how you regard the term "form" told me a whole lot about how you approach the music.


 In fact, it was the free flowing nature of your work that caused me to wonder how you make your way through all the changes.


 Thank you very much for sharing your music with us.


 It is a joy to listen to, learn from, and be inspired by such craftsmanship. I can sense your confidence as an a artist. I appreciate it and I think it is a privilege to get to hear your early releases.


best regards,
mike




edited grammar

jsg

jamesyoyo

jsg

jamesyoyo


Simply beautiful stuff, Jerry. You know your stuff.

Those strings sound absolutely convincing.

The horns are a bit loud and too much high end so they kinda are a giveaway, which is something commonly heard in the sampled orchestras. I find when I do stuff like this I am always cutting the horns at 4k with a high shelf.

The whole thing could use some unifying reverb.

Amazing how we all hear very differently.  I am satisfied the horns are in balance and any more reverb and the textures and counterpoint would lose defintion, I tried using a little more and didn't like it.  

JG

No, they are in balance. It just sounds like the microphone for the horns is RIGHT IN THE CUP, if you know what I mean. The immediacy of the highs is not something you would get in recording a brass ensemble, even in the studio.


But some of the instrumentation sounds like it was recorded in an an-echoic chamber, where there seems to be no sense of space. Even a little bit of room reverb would work. 

Your comments seem more directed as to how VSL records their brass, which I have no control over. The brass are sampled close, which might bother your ear, and does not bother mine. I experimented with numerous reverb settings and came up with the one that satisfied my ear the most.
JG 

Yeah, but you do have some control over how those VSL samples appear to the listener. Anyhoo, if you want, I will put it this way: I absolutely love what you did here musically. But anyone who listens to orchestral music will know it is not real. To me, the idea is to let the listener be transported by the music without the production getting in the way.

"But anyone who listens to orchestral music will know it is not real."


That's what people who go to the symphony think about all recorded music.

The classic recordings of great symphony performances, on their best day, sound like classic recordings.

Suggesting that there is some standard to adhere to is a form of nostalgia.




best regards,
mike 

mike_mccue


"But anyone who listens to orchestral music will know it is not real."


That's what people who go to the symphony think about all recorded music.

The classic recordings of great symphony performances, on their best day, sound like classic recordings.

Suggesting that there is some standard to adhere to is a form of nostalgia.




best regards,
mike 

Couldn't disagree more, Mike. People have expectations in genres that, when unmet, produce uneasy feelings that they might not be able to explain, but are indeed there. People hear symphonic stuff all the time in movies, tv shows, commercials, and they can feel the majesty of a live orchestra, and know the difference when they can't even notice it, if ya know what I mean.


And I just listened again with earbuds and the horns do seem out of balance. Too much frequency information and not enough reverb on some of them; they are just too hot. So it remains unconvincing not as a real musical piece, cuz it is awesome, but as a stand-in for the real thing. Some of the horn notes just sound so fast attack-y that it destroys the illusion.


The Yoyo's two cents...