I am advocating for the idea that art and expression will not be constrained by any taxonomy or expectation, and so your polite disagreement seems entirely valid to me, and it seems clearly stated.


all the best,
mike

Hi Jerry - You did a great job on this piece.  Each section so well done.  I like the tension.  I believe true artists paint for themselves first and audience second and same goes for the composers.  If one was to restrict their imagination to the boundaries of the masses, how could we achieve new thought and ideas?

Super job with this.  

Rimshot
    

jamesyoyo

 

Your comments seem more directed as to how VSL records their brass, which I have no control over. The brass are sampled close, which might bother your ear, and does not bother mine. I experimented with numerous reverb settings and came up with the one that satisfied my ear the most.
JG 

Yeah, but you do have some control over how those VSL samples appear to the listener. Anyhoo, if you want, I will put it this way: I absolutely love what you did here musically. But anyone who listens to orchestral music will know it is not real. To me, the idea is to let the listener be transported by the music without the production getting in the way.

 
 
James, For 99.9% of my listeners, the production does not in the slightest get in the way of a pleasurable aesthetic experience because very few people, you excluded, are focused on how "real" it is.  When you look at an excellent photograph, do you immediately compare it to a painting of the same scene and discount it because it is not a "real" painting?  When you go to a movie, do you find fault with it because you are looking at an illusion, 24 still frames per second being perceived as "real characters" and "real" situations that are just a trick on your brain?  Do you compare a film to a play because the film is not a "real" play?   I doubt it. 
 
The only people I've met who continue to insist that a MIDI recording must sound exactly like a real orchestra are usually those musicians who are players (often jazz players) much more than they are composers.  Their inability to separate live performance from the interpretation of music often gets in their way from appreciating the many wonderful musical qualities that a skilled composer/producer can get with MIDI.   Since you like my music, I suggest you examine your attitudes that might not be open-minded enough to a new, and musically powerful, medium.   You might learn to appreciate the effort, skill and time it takes to get a MIDI recording to really sing.  I mean, who really cares if the horn doesn't sound exactly like a "real" horn?  Isn't all art about illusion anyway?
 
JG

jamesyoyo

mike_mccue


"But anyone who listens to orchestral music will know it is not real."


That's what people who go to the symphony think about all recorded music.

The classic recordings of great symphony performances, on their best day, sound like classic recordings.

Suggesting that there is some standard to adhere to is a form of nostalgia.




best regards,
mike 

Couldn't disagree more, Mike. People have expectations in genres that, when unmet, produce uneasy feelings that they might not be able to explain, but are indeed there. People hear symphonic stuff all the time in movies, tv shows, commercials, and they can feel the majesty of a live orchestra, and know the difference when they can't even notice it, if ya know what I mean.


And I just listened again with earbuds and the horns do seem out of balance. Too much frequency information and not enough reverb on some of them; they are just too hot. So it remains unconvincing not as a real musical piece, cuz it is awesome, but as a stand-in for the real thing. Some of the horn notes just sound so fast attack-y that it destroys the illusion.


The Yoyo's two cents...

  
  
Pretty much every TV commercial and TV show you hear these days is not using acoustic instruments at all.  But that's the world of commercial music, I am not in that world.  A composer, by my definition, is not put on this earth to "meet people"s expectation".  That's one of the differences between the commercial arts and the fine arts. 
 
And again, this is not, and does not pretend or intend to be, a "stand-in" for the real thing.  That's where your expectations and my production are in conflict.   This is NOT a mockup.  It is a digital interpretation of music, in the same way that a photograph is not a mockup for a painting.  Would it have been spelled out any clearer had I named the piece  "This is NOT an Acoustic Work"?    ;>)
 
Also, can you not appreciate and respect the subjectivity of your own hearing and listening skills?  I understand if you had said "my preference is that the horns be more in the background of the mix".  Then you are acknowledging that you, as a listener, have a part in the experience.  But saying "the horns are out of balance" presupposes a non-existent objectivity on your part.
 
JG

 

foxwolfen

jsg

foxwolfen


I find a lot of educated composers create music like this. It is something I see constantly at the Composers Forum. While technically correct, it is utterly without art or beauty. Sterile. You cannot write music with your brain. Music does not come from the brain. Just my opinion. I am going to use you as an example of something that is also my opinion. If you are writing music simply to please yourself, then you have no need to post it. If you are writing music to please your audience, then you should pay attention to what they are saying. If your audience is saying the brass is too present, and there is no sense of space.. then the brass is too present and there is no sense of space.

Shad,
 
Maybe you're proud of being ignorant (uneducated in music) but most serious artists have more humility than that.  I went over to Composer's Forum and listened to several of your tracks.  They are mediocre in every sense of the word,  I hear no compositional originality, very little skill in production and hackneyed cliches abound, you have much work to do if you're going to call yourself a composer.  When someone who composes on the level that you do says a work has no "art or beauty", I can only dismiss it as immature posturing by someone who thinks he is more qualified to offer constructive criticism than he really is. 
 
I generally never offer my opinion on these forums regarding anybody's music, but when someone's arrogance irks me I sometimes get curious as to whether what might be youthful brashness might actually be serving a budding young talent.  In your case, I don't think so. 
JG

Hi Jerry,

Very impressive and enjoyable composition & recording. Like all of your previous postings.

Congrats and good luck with the CD.

If any of you are in the San Francisco Bay area, you might want to attend my workshop in May called "Beyond the MIDI Mockup", sponsored by the Manhattan Producer's Alliance and the San Francisco Center for New Music (www.jerrygerber.com/beyondthemidimockup.htm).

I'm sure this would be over my head but, man, I sure do wish I still lived in SF. 

First, this is excellent work! What a great bit of writing. Everything sounds wonderful!

I think you can add the reverb. I would create a bus and route everything but the percussion and basses and tubas to that bus. Or, create two sub master busses and one master. Route all the percussion, basses, tubas and bassoon to one and everything else to the other. Use a convolution reverb and give it space. Just some ideas.

Very nice work indeed!!!

Composer's Forum

jsg

jamesyoyo

mike_mccue


"But anyone who listens to orchestral music will know it is not real."


That's what people who go to the symphony think about all recorded music.

The classic recordings of great symphony performances, on their best day, sound like classic recordings.

Suggesting that there is some standard to adhere to is a form of nostalgia.




best regards,
mike 

Couldn't disagree more, Mike. People have expectations in genres that, when unmet, produce uneasy feelings that they might not be able to explain, but are indeed there. People hear symphonic stuff all the time in movies, tv shows, commercials, and they can feel the majesty of a live orchestra, and know the difference when they can't even notice it, if ya know what I mean.


And I just listened again with earbuds and the horns do seem out of balance. Too much frequency information and not enough reverb on some of them; they are just too hot. So it remains unconvincing not as a real musical piece, cuz it is awesome, but as a stand-in for the real thing. Some of the horn notes just sound so fast attack-y that it destroys the illusion.


The Yoyo's two cents...

  
  
Pretty much every TV commercial and TV show you hear these days is not using acoustic instruments at all.  But that's the world of commercial music, I am not in that world.  A composer, by my definition, is not put on this earth to "meet people"s expectation".  That's one of the differences between the commercial arts and the fine arts. 
 
And again, this is not, and does not pretend or intend to be, a "stand-in" for the real thing.  That's where your expectations and my production are in conflict.   This is NOT a mockup.  It is a digital interpretation of music, in the same way that a photograph is not a mockup for a painting.  Would it have been spelled out any clearer had I named the piece  "This is NOT an Acoustic Work"?    ;>)
 
Also, can you not appreciate and respect the subjectivity of your own hearing and listening skills?  I understand if you had said "my preference is that the horns be more in the background of the mix".  Then you are acknowledging that you, as a listener, have a part in the experience.  But saying "the horns are out of balance" presupposes a non-existent objectivity on your part.
 
JG

 

Ya know, Jer...whatever. Next time you post, just say "I need no criticisms, only compliments." And I will gladly comply, since your stuff is excellent.

Ya know, Jer...whatever. Next time you post, just say "I need no criticisms, only compliments." And I will gladly comply, since your stuff is excellent.

That's the rub.  I do need, and want, constructive, insightful criticism from people I trust, who's talents, ears and experience will provide me with that quality of criticism.  I get that from a few people I know.  Given the nature of the web and particularly this forum, I have no idea who I am communicating with.  A 12-year old with a big mouth?   A 40-year old who has a failed career and hates himself?   An amateur player with no compositions of their own?  Someone with lots of opinions but no real knowledge?  Context is everything.   I know my work is good, constructive criticism often can make it even better.  But 99.99% of the comments I get cause me to think "tell me something I don't already know, or I haven't already tried"...
 
I am not overconfident.  I've spent my entire adult life composing and producing music and know constructive criticism when I hear it!  What I usually get is equivalent to "I prefer more salt on my potatoes than you do".   ;>)
 
JG