foxwolfen
Don't listen to the reverb haters
. The mud is not coming from JUST the bass reverb IMO. It sound like it is due more to the tone on the drums and in particular the piano being too similarly pitched to the lead guitar and bass, and are stepping all over each other. You can test this by simply taking the reverb off and seeing just how much the mix ACTUALLY clears up. If it is not suddenly pristine, then reverb is not your problem.
There is nothing wrong with reverb. It just takes a lot of work to get right. I get the feeling Danny and I will never agree on this point. Where we do agree is how much reverb to use. While I found it fine on the bass, the piano seemed saturated. As a keys guy, I am surprised you did not notice that yourself. Piano already has so much natural reverb and resonance that it becomes the main source of mud in many mixes.
Much like another mix I heard lately, the lead is fuzzy, and in the center it tends to add its fuzz to the rest of the mix. The lead is the focal point of the mix, so it needs to be very clean (even if effected). It is hitting the center so hard that its narrowing the mix dramatically. I would dial it back, and bring the drum kit more forward and spread out.
If there was a rhythm guitar in this, it is so lost as I missed it completely.
There is nothing wrong with the stereo spread of the piano, as long as its controlled tonewise. As already mentioned, the piano and bass are clashing. I might try some EQ on it more space for the bass. The secondary problem with the piano tone is that it seems to be the only thing going wide other than the reverb, so, think more about the instumentation placement within the mix.
Just my 2C. So much of this is actually subjective.
I also think this is one hell of a killer song and encourage you to polish it up. I love the arpeggio. This song has a wonderful "Muse" (band) vibe. You are a remarkably talanted and versatile individual Terry.
Just to be clear...I love reverb. I just think it can make or break a mix if you use too much decay or use the same verb on several instruments. It's also not a good idea to allow it to run amuck without controlling how far it spreads. You lose your stereo field panning impact as soon as you allow effects to pan wide. It takes the tails of the instruments and throws them out of their designated pan fields.
As for the bass, I never said the verb in it made anything muddy. What I said was, the verb disconnects the bass from the kick drum. When this happens, there are no start/stop points for your core "low end" instruments. The tails of each just run into each other like a run-on sentence.
The piano isn't pitched anywhere near the guitars. The problem is, the space the piano is taking up due to spread of the instrument (which can be due to the verb/room sound) is walking right on top of the guitars in the pan field. When you have two mid range instruments occupying the same pan field, even if their pitches are different, pan field masking can occur. The piano cuts through and walks right over top of the guitars because it is brighter and more dominant. The guitars are more dull/boxy and mid range sounding...so when the piano comes in, it just obliterates the guitars.
There's definitely some eq issues that need care, but it's hard to tell what they are when the tails of the verb run into the instruments with each bar of music. There are no breathing points with a mix this wet. You and I will never agree on reverb because your music is more electronic and from what I've heard, doesn't use real instrumentation nor does it have various vocals, real guitars or the need to cut into effects and eq curves quite the same way. That's not a dig as I admire what you do and think you come up with great stuff. I've just never heard anything by you that had a more acoustic drum kit, real bass, real guitars, real lead guitar solo etc. Totally different mixing skills need to be incorporated which is my reason for mentioning this. Not because I think what you do is less complex....it's just different and needs to be handled differently.
When instrumentation sort of like this is the focus of discussion, this is why we'll never agree on things. For YOUR stuff, your advice is acceptable...for instrumental type stuff where more realististic sounds are in the mix, the sonic elements are a different breed. Electronic drum kits are quick, dead samples with just about zero sustain. Acoustic drums/samples resonate and need special eq curves. Add verb to acoustic drums that already have "overheads" in the samples, and the drums sustain even longer.
Add verb to electronic kits, it makes them less dead but they don't have "ring" in them like an A-kit. So you'd be able to get away with more verb on an E-kit than you would an A-kit or an A-kit module/simulation. There are just way more elements involved. You don't have room mics with E-kits most times or when you use an 808 kit etc...it's just different. Real guitars add a different element...real played bass is different than midi bass...the list goes on and on.
The lead guitar didn't sound fuzzy to me. It sounded like a lead guitar up the center acting as a vocal line with over-drive...which is what it's supposed to sound like in this style of music. Fuzzy = distortion? If so, yep, that's how it's supposed to sound. It didn't have excessive, harsh, high end and seemed to be low passed perfectly for the sound. Making it "clean" would ruin the impact of the song. It's supposed to be over-driven. Not trying to be facetious, but are you familiar with instrumental rock guitar music? The sound of the lead guitar here is common and right in the ballpark in my opinion.
Piano and bass clashing? I'll have to disagree with that one. The bass is down the center, the piano is spread to the sides. They don't even share the same frequencies. The only likeness they share is a verb and maybe a few left hand bass notes, but they are far enough away from each other in tonality and spread to be out of each others way. In music of this nature, 9 out of 10 times, you will NOT hear a reverb to that extent on a bass guitar. That's really not a subjective opinion, it's pretty much fact. The bass needs to work with the kick drum, not go against it.
So though we'll have to agree to disagree, I wanted to at least point out why I disagree. Having recorded this style of music many times in my life, I like to think I know a little something about it...but I could be mistaken. ;)
-Danny