RusLow end is very hard to tame even if you're experienced (ie: Danny is, I am not), but the most important thing when mixing is balance.

 
So true....and actually, I struggle with it too sometimes. The hardest thing for me has been...when to boost the low end in frequency and when to just turn up the instrument instead. Like...you got a good kick drum happening that you want to hear more of. When you turn it up a little more...it sounds good. Yet if you back it down to where it was and then slightly boost the low end that's accentuating it...it sounds good there too. So it's more a decision making process for me more than having a problem taming it. The best method of handling it in my opinion Rus, is to not have it there in excess to begin with.
 
Like one thing that I've noticed from doing this stuff all the time is...you sort of know when something is a good sound "for the mix" before you even print it where years ago, I printed sounds that were more "for my head" because I liked them. 8 times out of 10, I failed doing stuff like that. It's like you have to find this happy medium that doesn't sound too good because if it does, it usually needs some intense tweaking, ya know what I mean?
 
One of the hardest things for me used to be guitar tones. Like most guitar players, I liked the way low end made the tone sound bigger and thicker while missing the mask of low end woooooooooossss it literally put into the mix. Or thinking "a bass guitar is a low end instrument...it should have a lot more lows in it" were some of the things I used to think. The reality there is, sometimes the kick drum may be the lowest sounding instrument to which you *could* then, allow the bass to have a little more clack or be a bit brighter. Or you may decide you want a kick with a bit more beater attack in it...so here is a good chance to let the bass rattle a little lower and be the low man on the poll.
 
The good thing about how I do things now is....the only struggling I do is making up my mind, which I welcome with open arms as opposed to second guessing or wondering how to tame or control the bass as well as where to look for the offending frequencies. The right monitor rig has definitely helped me in that area though. Unlike Bub, when I used to mix more on headphones, what I used at the time seemed to always need more lows. So I'd add them....and then the car test would be like this wall of "whooomf" and mud. So even during those times, I'd be happy with a mix like his and would rather be a little bass light than bass heavy and loaded with mud like I was getting. That loaded with mud sound after you've worked on a mix for hours and hours is the most depressing thing I tell ya. I so don't miss those days.
 
-Danny

Hey Bub!  That's always a fun tune to play.  I pretty much agree with everything Danny and the others said here about the low end of drums and bass, and the bit about drums being weak in the mix.  Mixing in Headphones has never worked for me...

So you have a mono drum track to work with if I read that correctly?  I think there are a couple of "stereoizer" plugins out there, and I am in need of one myself as a matter of fact.  I think they work on frequency/spectrum analysis and somehow spread the highs toward the sides.  Another trick I have been thinking about for this dilemma is to copy the track twice, and with some serious EQing of each end up with a pseudo "kick" track, a "snare" track, and a "hi hat" track, each panned appropriately.

As far as "fixing" your original drum track, I'm wondering if a good 3 or 4-band compressor might be able to boost the output of just a select band of frequency, such as the kick, and then the level of the whole drum track could be raised in your mix.  And hey... if none of this works, you could always just "play" another kick drum part in on the fly!!  Layers are great!

Depending on the frequencies of your bass guitar and your kick drum, you can sometimes get great separation of the two by boosting a tad in the kick (90k for example), and CUT that frequency in the bass guitar.  Boost a bass guitar frequency (say 140k) a tad, and CUT that same frequency in the kick.  Then do something similar in the higher frequency attack portion of those 2 instruments so you can define the beater and the string attack sound.  The ProChannel in X1/X2 is waaaaay too much fun for doing this!  LOL

Unfortunately, I am not in my studio as I listen to your  song...on a laptop... and the whole mix sounds a bit mono to me except for the backup singers and oddly, sometimes the bass, are wide.  Could be my imagination... been a long day.  LOL  If this is the case, you may want to think about panning a little differently.  Rhythm guitars sound AWESOME when copied to another track, delay the copied track by 10-40 ms or so, and each track panned hard left and the other hard right.  (known as the Haas Effect.)  It makes them big and wide.  Add a different EQ or saturation to one of them... experiment and have fun with it!

Do pay attention to what Danny said about the whole mix being a liitle on the High-pass (bright) side.  An EQ adjustment will tame this I think.

A fine first cut Bub! I hope you don't think I've been too critical... after all, it's only my opinion...and we all know about opinions....LOL

I can't wait to hear the 2nd cut!!

tbosco


Hey Bub!  That's always a fun tune to play.  I pretty much agree with everything Danny and the others said here about the low end of drums and bass, and the bit about drums being weak in the mix.  Mixing in Headphones has never worked for me...

So you have a mono drum track to work with if I read that correctly?  I think there are a couple of "stereoizer" plugins out there, and I am in need of one myself as a matter of fact.  I think they work on frequency/spectrum analysis and somehow spread the highs toward the sides.  Another trick I have been thinking about for this dilemma is to copy the track twice, and with some serious EQing of each end up with a pseudo "kick" track, a "snare" track, and a "hi hat" track, each panned appropriately.

As far as "fixing" your original drum track, I'm wondering if a good 3 or 4-band compressor might be able to boost the output of just a select band of frequency, such as the kick, and then the level of the whole drum track could be raised in your mix.  And hey... if none of this works, you could always just "play" another kick drum part in on the fly!!  Layers are great!

Depending on the frequencies of your bass guitar and your kick drum, you can sometimes get great separation of the two by boosting a tad in the kick (90k for example), and CUT that frequency in the bass guitar.  Boost a bass guitar frequency (say 140k) a tad, and CUT that same frequency in the kick.  Then do something similar in the higher frequency attack portion of those 2 instruments so you can define the beater and the string attack sound.  The ProChannel in X1/X2 is waaaaay too much fun for doing this!  LOL

Unfortunately, I am not in my studio as I listen to your  song...on a laptop... and the whole mix sounds a bit mono to me except for the backup singers and oddly, sometimes the bass, are wide.  Could be my imagination... been a long day.  LOL  If this is the case, you may want to think about panning a little differently.  Rhythm guitars sound AWESOME when copied to another track, delay the copied track by 10-40 ms or so, and each track panned hard left and the other hard right.  (known as the Haas Effect.)  It makes them big and wide.  Add a different EQ or saturation to one of them... experiment and have fun with it!

Do pay attention to what Danny said about the whole mix being a liitle on the High-pass (bright) side.  An EQ adjustment will tame this I think.

A fine first cut Bub! I hope you don't think I've been too critical... after all, it's only my opinion...and we all know about opinions....LOL

I can't wait to hear the 2nd cut!!

Good stuff there Tony. :) As for those stereoizers....be careful with them if you find one you like. Most times you will not hear any difference unless you put a stereo effect on the track. If you don't, they seem to give you that phased sound. He's probably be better off putting a HAAS on the drums. And hey...did you know you don't have to clone your tracks to do the HAAS thing? Just simply put a delay like the Sonitus on the track, run the wet signal all the way up, set your delay time to taste and you're rolling. :)
 
The cool thing about that is, you don't have to experiment with cloning...sliding back the tracks in ticks etc...you do it all from the delay non-destructively. For example, put a Sonitus on a track, jack up the wet signals too 100, set the delay to like 15, 20 or 30 ms. You don't even need to have the left side delay in the mix because you want one of them to be in time. Just turn off the grouping in the delay and set the left side to 0 on the wet level so it stays in time, right side all the way up and put in your time for the right side.
 
It's pretty slick because you can work with it in real time. From there, use the wet signal level as your wideness control. The lower you make it, the tigher it will bring in the delayed signal on the right. For example, say we have a drum kit like Bub's going on. We set up the HAAS like I mentioned with the delay and we find that at 100 wet on the right side, Bub's drums seem to be a bit too wide and separated from the mix. Like for me...I HATE toms or cymbals that seem so far panned, they are walking on guitars or something else. I like to keep my entire drum kit panned from say 50L/R or 60L/R so they don't fly all over the place and get disconnected from the mix.  Because Bub's drums are mono though, he may get away with say 70 on the wet delay control. The more he turns that down, the more it pulls in the spread. :)
 
Just figured I'd share this with you because one of the things I hated about cloning was that I had to experiment so much with sliding the tracks backwards or forwards. With the delay, you do it in real time and never worry. :)
 
-Danny 

Danny Danzi

Rus
Low end is very hard to tame even if you're experienced (ie: Danny is, I am not), but the most important thing when mixing is balance.

 
So true....and actually, I struggle with it too sometimes. The hardest thing for me has been...when to boost the low end in frequency and when to just turn up the instrument instead. Like...you got a good kick drum happening that you want to hear more of. When you turn it up a little more...it sounds good. Yet if you back it down to where it was and then slightly boost the low end that's accentuating it...it sounds good there too. So it's more a decision making process for me more than having a problem taming it. The best method of handling it in my opinion Rus, is to not have it there in excess to begin with.
 
Like one thing that I've noticed from doing this stuff all the time is...you sort of know when something is a good sound "for the mix" before you even print it where years ago, I printed sounds that were more "for my head" because I liked them. 8 times out of 10, I failed doing stuff like that. It's like you have to find this happy medium that doesn't sound too good because if it does, it usually needs some intense tweaking, ya know what I mean?
 
One of the hardest things for me used to be guitar tones. Like most guitar players, I liked the way low end made the tone sound bigger and thicker while missing the mask of low end woooooooooossss it literally put into the mix. Or thinking "a bass guitar is a low end instrument...it should have a lot more lows in it" were some of the things I used to think. The reality there is, sometimes the kick drum may be the lowest sounding instrument to which you *could* then, allow the bass to have a little more clack or be a bit brighter. Or you may decide you want a kick with a bit more beater attack in it...so here is a good chance to let the bass rattle a little lower and be the low man on the poll.
 
The good thing about how I do things now is....the only struggling I do is making up my mind, which I welcome with open arms as opposed to second guessing or wondering how to tame or control the bass as well as where to look for the offending frequencies. The right monitor rig has definitely helped me in that area though. Unlike Bub, when I used to mix more on headphones, what I used at the time seemed to always need more lows. So I'd add them....and then the car test would be like this wall of "whooomf" and mud. So even during those times, I'd be happy with a mix like his and would rather be a little bass light than bass heavy and loaded with mud like I was getting. That loaded with mud sound after you've worked on a mix for hours and hours is the most depressing thing I tell ya. I so don't miss those days.
 
-Danny

The mixing on headphones (small monitors or earbuds) I'm not one to mix with them either, but they are useful too point out the low end problem, but they'll definitely clue you in on mids and highs. With the issue of just turning it down, in this case, it appears to be that way then more frequency tinkering, but always be aware of both options. Making up one mind as a result is frustrated, but I think we all agree that, leaving the project and coming back with fresh ears even if something seems obvious, will point out the problem. Nothing like being to close to a mix even if it is mixed well.

Test the mix in different environments; however, do mix it well (not perfect) in the source environment because if it's not right there, it won't be anywhere else.

Rus W

Danny Danzi

Rus
Low end is very hard to tame even if you're experienced (ie: Danny is, I am not), but the most important thing when mixing is balance.

So true....and actually, I struggle with it too sometimes. The hardest thing for me has been...when to boost the low end in frequency and when to just turn up the instrument instead. Like...you got a good kick drum happening that you want to hear more of. When you turn it up a little more...it sounds good. Yet if you back it down to where it was and then slightly boost the low end that's accentuating it...it sounds good there too. So it's more a decision making process for me more than having a problem taming it. The best method of handling it in my opinion Rus, is to not have it there in excess to begin with.

Like one thing that I've noticed from doing this stuff all the time is...you sort of know when something is a good sound "for the mix" before you even print it where years ago, I printed sounds that were more "for my head" because I liked them. 8 times out of 10, I failed doing stuff like that. It's like you have to find this happy medium that doesn't sound too good because if it does, it usually needs some intense tweaking, ya know what I mean?

One of the hardest things for me used to be guitar tones. Like most guitar players, I liked the way low end made the tone sound bigger and thicker while missing the mask of low end woooooooooossss it literally put into the mix. Or thinking "a bass guitar is a low end instrument...it should have a lot more lows in it" were some of the things I used to think. The reality there is, sometimes the kick drum may be the lowest sounding instrument to which you *could* then, allow the bass to have a little more clack or be a bit brighter. Or you may decide you want a kick with a bit more beater attack in it...so here is a good chance to let the bass rattle a little lower and be the low man on the poll.

The good thing about how I do things now is....the only struggling I do is making up my mind, which I welcome with open arms as opposed to second guessing or wondering how to tame or control the bass as well as where to look for the offending frequencies. The right monitor rig has definitely helped me in that area though. Unlike Bub, when I used to mix more on headphones, what I used at the time seemed to always need more lows. So I'd add them....and then the car test would be like this wall of "whooomf" and mud. So even during those times, I'd be happy with a mix like his and would rather be a little bass light than bass heavy and loaded with mud like I was getting. That loaded with mud sound after you've worked on a mix for hours and hours is the most depressing thing I tell ya. I so don't miss those days.

-Danny

The mixing on headphones (small monitors or earbuds) I'm not one to mix with them either, but they are useful too point out the low end problem, but they'll definitely clue you in on mids and highs. With the issue of just turning it down, in this case, it appears to be that way then more frequency tinkering, but always be aware of both options. Making up one mind as a result is frustrated, but I think we all agree that, leaving the project and coming back with fresh ears even if something seems obvious, will point out the problem. Nothing like being to close to a mix even if it is mixed well.

Test the mix in different environments; however, do mix it well (not perfect) in the source environment because if it's not right there, it won't be anywhere else.

I'm with ya...but even using them for mids and highs can sometimes be the death of you especially if they are mid/high strong...or mid/high weak. I sincerely don't put too much stock in cans anymore these days because to be honest, in all my years I've never completed a mix in cans that even remotely comes close to what I've been able to come up with using my monitors + ARC.
 
Years ago, I'd use my NS-10's to get levels on instruments and then use my AKG's to do all the frequency work. Though I felt I did a "slightly better than demo quality" job all those years, I feel a lot better these days being able to say "I now do a WAY better than demo quality" job. LOL! Still not major label, but in some things....I feel I'm getting there and can come darned close. Close enough for me anyway. :) But I've never been able to get that close using cans, buds etc. I've been through quite a few sets of cans too....they just don't do it for me. To be honest? I sure wish they did because I enjoyed mixing in headphones and actually miss it. It brings you a little closer to the music in my opinion. But man, the compensation of doing that just tore me to shreds.
 
It's like you mix what sounds like a killer mix in your cans or on your studio monitors...then take it out somewhere else and are greeted with this other thing that you didn't hear at all when you were mixing it. These days with my monitor rig and ARC, whatever I mix is what I get everywhere thank God. It's like...you know that "stuff you didn't hear at all" that you sometimes hear after mxing in cans that I mentioned? It almost sounds like it's not the same mix when you fail, right? With what I do now, you always hear the exact elements of the mix and it's never drastically different. So at least now I get the consistent sound of @ss everywhere. LMAO! It's much better than second guessing I tell ya! Hahahahaha!
 
-Danny

^ As they say: "Experience is the best teacher!" You've had quite a few!

That goes for everybody here. (Of course, have someone who's in the know about this stuff, too. Multiple sets of ears aren't a bad thing.

Right on Rus... the more ears the better.  Kinda like eyes!  LOL  And I do believe headphones can be spot on for checking stereo placement and motion.

Danny-  Thanks for the delay tip.  I'll try it on a forthcoming project.  I like Haas a lot.  I've never had a problem cloning a track and moving one of them a few ms.  I usually get the desired result in a matter of seconds when I use it.  Maybe I've just been lucky.  I am guilty in my earlier days of having panned drums too wide (HH and snare).  After a lot of critical listening I have them much more toward center than I used to, but I have never tried Haas on 'em.  I usually save that for guitars, background vocals, or other textures that have nice highs in them that I want at the sides....ear candy!  LOL  Sounds great on jangly acoustic guitars too.

I'm really new to this Forum and really enjoy sharing and learing from all who contribute here, as I have only been seriously recording for almost 2 years.

Nice cover! The singer is really good. The mix is a bit bright for me. I would add more of the bass drum. After the first chorus I would use the snare to kick things up, but those were live recorded drums though.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

I'm working on applying the advice given so far.

I'll post an updated version soon.

Thanks!!

Great job Bub.  I won't comment on the mix (as the experts have spoken above) other than to agree that the drums sound a bit thin.  Given that you were transferring from tape, it sound mighty good.
Freddy J