But they're not using the D50's internal samples. They didn't strip the ROM. They sampled the outputs of the D50. As does anyone who creates music with it. As far as I understand it there shouldn't be any issues. That doesn't mean Roland or Persing wouldn't threaten and be successful of course.

If the sounds were created with the samples it is still copyright infringement.    The SCOTUS has a few years ago ruled that any recording of a copyrighted sound, no matter how small or how well processed, is still infringement.  Sampling the outputs of the D50 therefore qualifies as infringement.

It boils down to direct competing product.
 
if you own a D50 and record the outputs and make music - no problem, that's what it and all instruments like it are designed for.
 
If you record a D50 outputs and mangle, twist, distort and create new sounds - you could give or sell the sounds you have made.  They aren't representations of the D50 sound any longer and your not competing with Roland or the D50 products.
 
What Roland and Eric have a real issue with is directly recording the D50 and representing that with the wavs/kontakt library/soundfont you no longer need the D50, with Roland patch names.  This is infringement.  it's a completing product that is copyrighted and some trademarks as well.  Roland still owns the copyrights and trademarks.
 
You will see products for sale on ebay or around the web that represent samples of many modern synths or workstations (Fantom, MOTIF, D50, Kronos, etc.).  Almost always these are infringement products - only the company with copyright or trademarks can make a claim or file a law suit.
 
but would you REALLY want to risk investing in a product that may be illegal or a product that is questionable - and then you may lose money or your music?  not really worth the trouble or risk.
 
I for one don't want to risk having an issue with my music because of someone else's illegal or infringing samples or product.
 
Also many of the sample packs out there sound HORRIBLE when played up or down the keyboard range.  they aren't muti sample for each key, generally are not keymapped and just not that great.
 
I bought the hardware.  just easier and ya don't have to deal with all these issues, or more samples on the hard drive.  I bought the D550 rack version of the D50 synth for $300. pretty cheap for hardware.
 
I do wish that Roland would do a D50 VST and include all the sound cards similar to Korg Legacy M1 and Wavestations.  I would buy it in a heart beat, just to get rid of all the midi and audio cables haha.
 

I won't claim to be an expert on this, as I've never created a sample library nor studied the laws involved. I think this guy researched it pretty well, he has released many other commercial libraries of his own creation and also wrote the VST plugin that these samples run in. He's not your typical "buy my 32GB of Motif samples" guy from eBay.

or maybe Roland/Eric haven't caught up to him yet.  or maybe he has permission.  who knows.
 
I wouldn't buy the product without knowing 1st though.  That's just me.
 
I even read the licenses on free packs to make sure they can be used in commercial use.

Hi Guys.
I'm the person behind the “Synthesizer LA-50” and “ASTRAL 880” sound expansions for the VST called “Infinity”.

Obviously, I don't want to upset anyone, especially Eric when I know many of his friends, and I own and run Korg Forums. It's not like I'm someone hiding out in obscurity in some remote corner of ebay under a name nobody knows. Quite the opposite actually and it's very easy for anyone to reach out and touch me. I cannot stress this enough, if there are any issues that need to be addressed, I'd only be too happy to talk to anyone about them.

I was reading this thread and I'd like to point out a few things.

I've lost count of how many times I've read threads on this kind of subject, and I'm sure you all have too. This thread won't be the last either. The debate will go on forever. There's always an argument both ways, generally never backed up with any actual research into copyright law by someone qualified to do the work. Even when there is, the answers are not so simple. These kind of threads always end up in the topic being undecided, a grey area people agree to disagree on, or people swing one way or the other and get confused with copyright law as well as the difference between a performance vs a sound a musical instrument makes, which is a key point.

After reading all this, you won't have an answer one way or the other either. You just have to make up your own mind based on what everyone is doing, not just me, I'm taking about every keyboard and VST manufacture.

To satisfy my own personal curiosity, I paid a solicitor to do research on this for me. As expected, I also didn't get any straight answers, but I did get a much better idea of what everyone else is doing and assuming there are fine in doing that too, if it's good for them, why not me I thought.

Take any keyboard you like or any PCM based VST, it's ROM is populated with PCM data sampled from every kind of musical instrument you can imagine, all without the need to seek permission to use that data. If it were illegal to sample another musical instrument, Steinway and everyone else would have sued every Keyboard and VST manufacture going as everything from acoustic to digital instruments are sampled to produce today's keyboards and VST's that are based on PCM data.

For Roland to sample a piano for the D50 is no different of an act of you sampling a Roland D50 piano. You have simply repeated the exact same process they have, never having gained access to the original information and having to put in your own time, effort, equipment,, skill and knowledge to do it. Not to mention the fact that you still have to package it into your own product functional product.

And so on..... I could list endless examples.

With regards to the comment about trademark violations. Infinity doesn't use any Roland trademarks or any technologies invented or patented by Roland.

With regards to Eric's work, as above, my sound engine has none of Roland's technology so Eric's parameters are not even usable to me in order to shape my waveforms. There's also no assumed or written copyright between him and the end user anyway. That's between him and Roland who purchased the rights to distributed this parameters for the purpose of making their product produce a sound.

With regards to raw waveforms, I didn't use them, and a sound cannot be copyrighted. If that were even remotely possible, Steinway and everyone else would have sued every keyboard manufacture and sample library developer years ago.

With regards to the final sound a “musical instrument” produces, as above, you cannot copyright a sound. More importantly, to even assume you can requires the explanation of how come every other PCM based keyboard and VST manufacture are sampling whatever they like.

So from my point of view, my VST does not do any function invented by Roland and there's no trademark violation. I'm simply doing the exact same thing they did, and everyone else have been doing for the last 3 decades.

With regards to the comment of a direct competing product. As above, Infinity doesn't use Roland's trademark, plus they haven't sold or build a D50 or JD800 in over two decades. So, how could I be competing with something that you can't buy in the last 20+ years ?

If it comes down to Eric or Roland wanting me to remove select expansions for Infinity, then sure I'm obviously going to listen as I don't want any trouble at all. Can't say I'd be too happy about it though considering all that's said above, and what all other manufactures and sound houses are doing. I'm only a little guy though so easily pushed around. This is all way more of a hobby for me. Anyone who knows me knows I spend most of my time doing things for free,.

Hope this helps explain things a bit and my position.

Kind regards
James.

James, thanks for chiming in. This is a gray area and you bring up several thought provoking points. I doubt most, if any of the 808 sample libraries sold are licenced or authorized by Roland. You would also think sample based synths would be priced in the stratosphere if they had to clear samples of every instrument they used as source material.

James - thanks for commenting.
 
Annabelle - sorry for getting your thread so off the mark.

Good of you to chime in here, James. I've know you from your Korg Forums for a little longer and can confirm everything you say about the way you work. I can also underscore the quality of Infinity and the LA50 expansion. I hope this at least puts to rest the question about the origin of the samples.
And Annabelle, again, I don't think you're going to find a free set and for 15 bucks this is a high quality buy.