• SONAR
  • Tell me about dithering (p.2)
2017/02/10 08:27:34
AllanH
Anderton
You may find this article I wrote helpful in de-mystifying what dithering is, and how it works. Unfortunately the link to the audio example is broken, I'll fix it as soon as I find the original files.



Excellent article!
 
I've always thought of dithering simply as a way to make sure that loss of bits doesn't get too obvious. It's akin to if you have a number with two decimal points and you only can use integers: do you truncate (throw decimals away), round to nearest integer, or randomize the rounding and truncating (dithering). I have to say I'm not sure I've ever noticed any difference between the various algos (not that I've especially paid attention)
 
2017/02/10 08:30:43
tenfoot
mudgel
I should have been more specific and said that there is no dithering plugin.



There are a few specialised dithering plugins, though  I can't imagine why you would bother. I got one a while back as part of a bundle.
 
http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-dither/
 
2017/02/10 08:34:58
JohnEgan
John
Ozone dithers. 
 
https://www.izotope.com/content/izotope/en/search.html?q=dithering+guide  Here is Izotope's Dithering Guide. 




Thanks I should have checked that out, but will now, lol
 
Cheers
2017/02/10 08:48:28
pwalpwal
JohnEgan
Anderton
First, I wouldn't worry too much about it unless you're doing classical music or acoustic music with a lot of dynamics. Second, when you export, what you exported from doesn't change. Dithering is typically added as part of the conversion to 16 bits.

 
Good Day all,
 
So, not to worry about dithering something twice? or dithering at all? It seems your article says dont do it twice.
 
 
Cheers   



don't ever do it twice, only ever as the last step in reducing bit depth, and only if you're reducing bit depth
2017/02/10 09:20:49
greg_moreira
Thanks for the insight everyone.
 
I thought of a good way of explaining my thought process(read confusion lol).  I build and maintain a lot of databases for a living.  So...error handling is part of the process in coding this stuff out.  You are basically adding in logic that says 'here is what to do if/when this error happens', and of course.....the errors you might try to account for may or may not happen.
 
I was rationalizing the process of dithering in the same fashion.  I just assumed dithering happened at the exact same time the conversion was going on.  As in "here is where a rounding error happened here.  Apply dithering here to hide that error".
 
So thats why I couldnt understand a plugin application, cause I'm thinking to myself...  how can a plugin 'dither' rounding errors, when the audio isnt yet converted and hasnt yet experienced rounding errors.  Im learning that the dithering/noise is in fact applied first before conversion though and the process doesnt work the way I thought it did.
 
To the plugin questions.  I dont have intentions to go out and buy something specifically for the purpose of dithering.  But I have a couple plugins that do offer it as part of the deal.  Like the waves limiters.  I have a couple of those, and they allow for dithering, and I hear that the IDR dithering process in them is 'supposed' to be pretty good.
 
I wanted to understand it better before I tried using the limiter to apply the dithering vs just letting the DAW do it on export
 
 
2017/02/10 09:31:36
chuckebaby
some might think im foolish for saying this, but I typically do heavy rock / metal and never dither.
I use dithering on my Waves L3 but not in the export process. I used to use Cakewalks POW3 but I wasn't sure if I was hearing a subtle added distortion ... or it was a problem with my mixes.
 
so I chose to eliminate dither and focus on my subtle distortion problem.
After correcting the issue I exported again using dither and then not dither.
I couldn't hear a difference at all so have chosen to not dither at all.
I simply cant hear the distortion dither adds to correct digital audio.
 
So instead opted for distorted guitars are my dithering.
2017/02/10 09:36:19
JohnEgan
John
Ozone dithers. 
 



Thanks again John, there's an example for setting up Ozone/Sonar dither options when Ozone is used within Sonar, (and lots of dithering theory). However, much like not asking for directions until Im lost, (LOL), Ill have to go back into Ozone 7 manual to search for when exporting out of Ozone, (i.e., not using Sonar to master) whether to decline dithering in Ozone export options, if enabled within actual Ozone application signal chain, as I didn't find this specified or 100% clear in this document. At this point Im thinking I should decline dithering in Ozone export options, if Ive enabled it within Ozone application, in assuming it would be similar to selecting "none" in Sonar export/dither options, (unless you have the quick answer?). Albeit, I would like to think that Ozone application should not allow dither to be selected in export options, if it is already enabled within application. (i guess that would be better directed to Ozone developers).
 
Cheers    
2017/02/10 10:09:34
mettelus
JohnEgan
John
Ozone dithers. 
 
https://www.izotope.com/content/izotope/en/search.html?q=dithering+guide  Here is Izotope's Dithering Guide. 




Thanks I should have checked that out, but will now, lol
 
Cheers


iZotope has several free guides on their support page. You do not need to own their products to download/read them. The mixing and mastering guides are also worth a gander.
2017/02/10 14:05:52
drewfx1
What we sometimes call "dithering" is actually a combination of several things:
 
1. dithering - essentially this is just adding noise at a particular level before reducing bit depth. The level and type of noise required to eliminate the distortion caused by quantization (bit reduction) and convert it to noise instead of distortion is very particular - too little noise and you still get some distortion or noise modulation (noise that varies in level with the signal, which is more noticeable than just plain noise); too much noise and you're adding additional noise with no benefit. So if we add noise in a plugin, we don't want to change the signal level after that point in the chain.
 
2. bit reduction - this is the actual reduction in bit depth (quantization). If we do this in a plugin, we don't want any changes of any kind after we do it. IOW it has to be the absolute last thing in the chain - no mixing, EQ, level changes, sample rate conversion or anything else. What happens with a plugin that does this is it outputs a signal where the lowest bits are all empty (zero), so if you truncate those bits when exporting you don't lose anything.
 
3. noise shaping - this happens at the same time as bit reduction and effectively moves the noise/error from quantization (including dither) to frequencies where we are less able to hear it. Generally the difference between advanced "dithering" algorithms with fancy technical names is really noise shaping and not the dithering part, and different noise shaping algorithms are effectively just different EQ curves moving most of the noise to high frequencies with everyone claiming that their EQ curve is better than everyone else's. As noise shaping is done along with bit reduction, the same rules again apply - absolutely no changes of any kind can occur after it if we do it in a plugin.
2017/02/13 07:33:00
JohnEgan
Good Day, If anyone is still following this and using Ozone is interested, response from Izotope,
 
Q
In export options, should I be declining (uncheck) export dithering option, if I have enabled and selected dithering options within the Ozone application itself? (i.e., would I be dithering twice?).
 
A
Thanks for reaching out! In the stand alone Ozone 7 app, the dithering module settings will be used for the track being exported, but the bit depth will automatically be changed to match the exported file bit depth. Un-checking dither in the export menu will remove dither from the track altogether.
 
Cheers
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