+1 to what bitflipper just said.
 

+1.1 to what rtucker55 sed.

Whoa!... moderators who are non-Cakewalk employees ?!? - This is quite a "first" after over a decade of the "CW employees only" policy! That's a big move. (Insert eye-popping emoticon)
 
After reading through this thread, one thing that stands out for me are the posts and comments about potential new mods - posts about suggested rules to keep new mods from abusing power, comments regarding methods of redress for members slighted by the new mods, concern about members' ability to appeal to CW Admins, and many more related comments. Now some of the posts may contain great ideas, but what stands out is that many forum members seem quite uneasy about CW's decision to use mods who are essentially peers. Most everyone is saying "great idea, more mods", but many are also qualifying their support by asking for rules and restrictions on the new mods, and the concern is significant - members are clearly worried about being treated fairly. Of course, it's CW's prerogative to implement new mods and to make the rules governing them, but the undercurrent of concern from forum members about being treated fairly is palpable.
 
CW may be entering a situation where they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
 
Which leads me to a suggestion - start looking for volunteer mods within your beta test group - at least there is a degree of commitment and loyalty (if that's what you want) there among your beta testers. You may even find all of the volunteer mods you need there. (Disclaimer for the cynics: I am NOT a beta tester).
 
If after that you still need more mods, start with members like scook, who's post count must consist of 99% helpful posts. The general membership seeing respected members like that being promoted to moderator many ease some of the concerns of anxious forum members.
 
Or, you could make members really anxious by choosing members who have post counts consisting primarily of inane posts in the Coffeehouse about bacon/some guy named Fred/upstairs-downstairs/other limited-intellect content.  

Willy Jones [Cakewalk
Greetings Friends,
 
Today we'd like to share with you our first round of ideas for some changes to the forum and get your feedback. 

 
Feedback Part 1:
 
I like the combined "legacy" software forums. I would even include, as some have already mentioned, adding older version of Sonar to the "legacy" sub-forum (or at least pre-S8). Some may argue for separate P5 or older Sonar sub-forums, but since P5, Sonar 8X/7/older, and other older versions of CW software are becoming "old software" and their user base is diminishing, it seems like a good space-saving and organizational move.
 
The Feedback Loop sounds good as long as you can keep it strictly about feedback and delete the disagreements that turn into arguments over contrary opinions.
 
 

Anderton
I love the idea of a separate forum for problem reports. Sometimes people post valuable input on some kind of problem that gets lost when it ends up being post #74 on page 5 of a thread. However I think to be effective, this is where moderation would really come into play to merge duplicate topics and encourage people to provide more information about a problem. I've seen these kinds of forums for other companies and when done poorly, they're whinefests that accomplish nothing but when done well, they make huge contributions by centralizing data and soliciting useful input from the community.

 
I also like the idea of a separate problem report sub-forum, and I think Craig's suggestions would help to keep that section clean and relevant.
 
 

Anderton 
As to the Coffee House, off-topic forums are always a hot potato...but people are people, not just software users. Having a place for off-topic posts also keeps those posts out of the main forums. One option is to make them password-protected so forum regulars can get in, while keeping out the +91 Swami Babaji types and trolls.

 
If this could be easily implemented, I think it would relieve a lot of frustration over spam.
 
 

Willy Jones [Cakewalk

Rain
No Coffee House?

That was a mistake - fixed it.

Ha!... Too bad. I think you should nuke the Coffeehouse (again)... it's a giant waste of server disc space. 
 
And with the disc space you save, you could re-enable image uploading, a popular request. 

Feedback Part 2: The Software sub-forum
 

dwardzala
I'd like to see Audio Hardware & DAW Building be kept separate from Software.

 
A BIG +1 on this one - the current Software forum is highly visited and notably helpful - I feel that it would be counter-productive to merge this with Hardware (which I think is better as its own sub-forum).
 
 

In the software forum there are about 20+ threads a day from people or companies noting new products or deals (which is great, btw) which will drown out the hardware and DAW threads that are often very informative.

 
This is a good point - going forward I'm not sure that we'll actually allow these types of posts on our forum. Let's face it, KVR is a much better source of information for this type of info and we've already seen a few incidents with representatives of another company getting into arguments with users on our forum. The DAW and hardware sections are useful complements to our products. The software forum is starting to smell a lot more like a spam bin/advertising bulletin board. There is a lot of good discussion around software that is valid and helpful to users. Would it make sense to limit the scope of conversation to discussion about compatibility/tools/features of a software product and not allow advertisements or promotions?

 
Yes, but the "promotion" part is up for interpretation.
 
From reading and using the software section, I can see that there is a lot of good and productive discussion. I understand CW's reluctance to have competitive software promoted in your forum, but using plug-ins as an example, the current Software forum provides users with numerous plug-in options that either add functionality to Sonar or give users options for comparison with Sonar features (which many times end up promoting a Sonar feature over the 3rd party alternative).
 
One forum member wrote "I like it that experienced and trusted users have the opportunity to give their thoughts and opinions on the stuff that is out there. It is unfortunate that there have been several 3rd Party Companies that have gotten on the Software Forum and got in spats with users, but I guess if it was me, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, I would just regulate the 3rd Party Companies" (Italics mine). Perhaps a compromise of this sort for continuing the Software section as-is, with (as examples) the exclusion of promoting any competitive DAW software or posts from their vendors/devs, or posts from new users with less than X number of posts.
 
Lastly, wouldn't you prefer users get info here and hang around this forum rather than sending them to KVR?

Feedback Part 3: "Whipping Boys"
 

Willy Jones [Cakewalk

AndertonI don't think the motivation here is to use moderation to sanitize the forums, but to organize the forums for maximum effectiveness, keep out the spammers, gently steer things in the right direction if things go off-course, and not have the community think no one is listening.

 
This is basically 100% the idea. Improve organization, minimize spam and optimize how feedback and problems are delivered to Cakewalk staff. (I wish I had another cool 'z' word to use).

 
(The word you are looking for is "finalize" but spelling it that way really ticks off the British forum members.)
 
I realize that this is how CW envisions the new mods, but as soon as a new mod locks the wrong someone's thread, or even tries to "gently steer" a touchy member in the right direction there is the possibility of hurt feelings. While CW can create all of the rules they want to minimize these issues, there will be times when noses are knocked out of joint and those disjointed members react. I'm not trying to poo-poo the new mod idea, but since CW will be pulling volunteers from a (somewhat) peer group there are going to be members who disagree, and some of those disagreeing will not be able to let it go which means that some of the new mods will be "reported" to CW which will, in turn, cause more interaction for CW Admins rather than less. And knowing how people are, there will also be threads popping up in the CH that will be complaints/criticisms/attacks pointed at certain mods.
 
You can hope and plan for the best, but reality is that since most forum members are human beings, conflict and whipping boys are inevitable.
 
 

wizard71
I agree that pointless bickering should be eliminated 

 
One person's "pointless bickering" is another person's spirited discussion. My point being that it can be tricky to decide whether to intervene or let things take their natural course. I'm aware that this has been hard enough for CW employees - it may be even harder for the new mods, which will again lead to the WB phenomenon.
 
 

Willy Jones [Cakewalk 
Here is a thought to not make moderators feel like they're tied to the whipping post (sorry couldn't help it). What if community moderators didn't ban anybody but instead only locked/moved threads, edited subjects to indicate solved and encouraged posters to provide more info where/when necessary? A ban would have to still come from 
somebody at Cakewalk after it has been discussed with the moderator group.

 
If new mods can't ban then how will they eliminate spammers?

Ruben
members who have post counts consisting primarily of inane posts in the Coffeehouse about bacon/some guy named Fred/upstairs-downstairs/other limited-intellect content.  

I resemble that remark!

Anderton
There have been a few trolls, but the community basically humiliated them so they apparently went off to find someplace that didn't have intelligent people.

 
OK, that was funny.

Ruben
 
If new mods can't ban then how will they eliminate spammers?

We can do it now.  Three flags as a spammer and they're gone.  Any abuse of the process is handled by a Cakewalk mod.  I can tell you that you DON'T want to give punishment power to a non-CW employee.

Ruben
Whoa!... moderators who are non-Cakewalk employees ?!? - This is quite a "first" after over a decade of the "CW employees only" policy! That's a big move. (Insert eye-popping emoticon)

 
It's already happened. I'm not a Cakewalk employee, and I did not have mod status for quite a while after Gibson acquired Cakewalk. But I'm up at all hours and when the spam was out of control, I asked for mod powers to get rid of it. I was not asked to be a mod, and I'm not particularly sure anyone at Cakewalk wanted to have an outside person be a mod, but they needed help. So I guess I was the first crack in the wall 
 
I really don't think anyone has had problems with how I've conducted my modness because I really haven't done much. Mostly it's just been housekeeping - killing spam, fixing typos, deleting duplicate posts, and starting topics I thought would interest people. When I saw the beginnings of flame wars, I didn't ban anyone. I started what I thought would be interesting topics and sure enough, people gravitated to those instead.
 
A successful mod is not a cop, but more like a talk show host who creates an environment for discussion, throws out topics, gives people a wide berth, and has a light touch. People commenting here seem to think the purpose of a mod is to be a negative force that dispenses discipline. No! A mod should be a positive force that creates a healthy environment for discussion. This creates a feedback loop where the forum continues to improve. 
 
Everyone knows the talk show host can always press the mute button and get the last word, which in itself tends to discourage misbehavior. It's like not speeding because you know there might be a cop in the bushes. Most flame wars burn out. Trying to put them out just makes things worse.
 

Which leads me to a suggestion - start looking for volunteer mods within your beta test group - at least there is a degree of commitment and loyalty (if that's what you want) there among your beta testers.

 
I would respectfully advise Cakewalk that technical knowledge and commitment to Cakewalk have little to do with being a good mod. Forum moderation requires a unique skill set, a thick skin, a lot of patience, a positive outlook, and understanding/tolerance. A good mod's first impulse should be to clarify a situation, neither defuse it nor squash it. Often clarification is all that's needed to stop problems.
 
I could be wrong, but I just don't think it's that big a deal. Mods should do as little as possible - "first, do no harm." The rest will take care of itself because overall, this is a family. Occasionally a dysfunctional family, but a family nonetheless.