Larry Jones
Sonar is an extremely complex application, often used by artists, who are not known for technical prowess, therefore likely to ask for help on matters of "pilot error." THESE FOLKS WILL STILL NEED ANSWERS.

 
Of course, but the question is whether a forum called "Problem Reports" would be the appropriate venue IF the main purpose of the forum is to  give the bakers a strong bug identification/fixing resource. For example the "Kontakt takes a long time to render" example I gave would probably be better placed in a Sonar forum, where it would be seen by people who use Kontakt with Sonar. Obviously the forum definition is up to Cakewalk, and depends on the function they want this forum to serve. I could be interpreting "Problem Reports" incorrectly, but the beauty of Cakewalk soliciting community comments is that issues can be resolved before anything is rolled out.
 

To them (us), a pilot error issue looks exactly the same as a reproducible bug.

 
That's the advantage of having a moderator. The question can be moved if it's of general interest, or deleted once it's answered if it's so specific that the odds of others experiencing the problem are very remote.
 

And secondly, there are, in fact, legitimate issues that are 100% reproducible on my system that strongly resemble pilot error, even though they are not.

 
If there is a problem that is 100% reproducible, then I would think a forum called "Problem Reports" would be the ideal place to post it.
 

This is one of the best user groups of its kind I've ever found, partly because other users usually don't try to judge the legitimacy of peoples' technical problems. They just try to help fix 'em.

 
And that's great, but again, it comes down to how Cakewalk sees a forum called "Problem Reports." My assumption is that it would be about taking advantage of the community testing Sonar in a gazillion different scenarios, and therefore uncovering issues that even years of testing at Sonar HQ might never uncover.
 
 
 

Larry Jones
May I suggest a dedicted "How To Do This" section, separate from the "This Doesn't Work" section?

 
I have a different suggestion...maybe "Problem Reports" would be more Cakewalk-facing and "official" to resolve software issues, but also have a "Users Helping Users" forum where people could throw questions open to the community. Again if it's moderated, then someone having an issue that's actually a bug could be moved/escalated to the "Problem Reports" forum.

Having been a senior moderator on a different forum for over ten years, one thing that worked for us was a tiered approach.  Certain people always stand out as potential moderator candidates so, in a forum that's private for the senior moderators, it's discussed who to offer the job to.  This person (or persons) is then given some power and a probation period.  If they prove they can handle it, AND they still want to handle it (some find they don't feel comfortable), then they are made a full moderator.  
 
The nastier stuff like banning a member, fixing the database and forum maintenance is left to the senior mods, but the bulk of the day-to-day stuff is handled at the standard moderator level (most of what Craig mentioned above).  Usually, these moderators can fix things in a post (malformed links, typos, removing duplicate posts, censoring the occasional expletive), subtly intervene in a hot topic to keep it civil, or lock a topic that is either started by a troll/spammer or getting out of hand.  They are required to add a line to the topic to show they've been in there (e.g., "[Edit:  Fixed typo in link. - John Smith]") and they also put links to any topics they lock in a moderators forum for discussion.  They aren't allowed to delete non-duplicate topics (after a review a senior moderator would either do this, or simply moved the locked topic to the moderator forum so it can be referred back to later).  They're also not allowed to punish members (only a senior moderator can ban a member temporarily or permanently).
 
Failure to add an edit line or put a link in the moderators forum can lead to losing their moderator status.  Knowing these checks and balances are there make the rest of the members feel better about being moderated.  Unexplained edits or topic locking causes a LOT of friction and, usually, a mass exodus of members.  If they show they are responsible then, eventually, they may be asked to be a senior moderator if a vacancy occurs.  We've only had to fill two in the last 11 years when one got a new job and started his own forum and another passed away so this isn't something that happens often!
 
For comparison, this other forum has about 260,000 posts over the last four years and five months (we prune down to four years every March) with almost 4,700 members.  The forum is actually much quieter now than it used to be compared to the 2007-2012 time frame when we had over 58 million page hits.

drewfx1
 
How about just adding a "deals" subforum instead? It's often helpful to me when someone here, whose opinion carries much more weight because I know them by their participation here, recommends a product that goes on sale.
 
And otherwise you might end up with a gray area where people start or bump a thread to discuss something every time it goes in sale.

Exactly. That's where the community comes into play and turns what could be blatant advertisement into something a bit more interactive, with members exchanging opinions about software.
 

All I'm saying is there should be a place where users can get answers from other users about the workings of Cakewalk products, even if the questions do not rise to the level of "bug." Just guessing, but I'll bet that type of interaction is two thirds of what goes on in the Sonar forum now. Of course the company needs to identify and track real code issues, but if everyday, simple "how to" questions (even those asked and answered in the past) don't have a place here, the value is drastically reduced.
***********EDITED TO CATCH UP WITH CRAIG**********************

Anderton

Larry Jones
May I suggest a dedicated "How To Do This" section, separate from the "This Doesn't Work" section?

 
I have a different suggestion...maybe "Problem Reports" would be more Cakewalk-facing and "official" to resolve software issues, but also have a "Users Helping Users" forum where people could throw questions open to the community. Again if it's moderated, then someone having an issue that's actually a bug could be moved/escalated to the "Problem Reports" forum.

YES!

Duplicate post, sort of.

I know that we all have our favorite places to hang out in the forums, and that you are not really changing the forum structure if you are not rearranging them, combining them, adding or dropping certain areas. I have gotten to where there are about only 3 forums that I regularly check out during the course of a day, the Techniques, Software and Coffee House. The Software Forum has become a really handy place for me to quickly look to see if there are any good sales going on. I like it that experienced and trusted users have the opportunity to give their thoughts and opinions on the stuff that is out there. It is unfortunate that there have been several 3rd Party Companies that have gotten on the Software Forum and got in spats with users, but I guess if it was me, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, I would just regulate the 3rd Party Companies.

I really like it that the Cakewalk forums offer so many different category's for these types of discussions, it makes it possible for me to spend the majority of my time at Cakes site. It seems like that would be the benefit of Cakewalk having such a growing, thriving, and busy forum site. You can go to a forum like Gibson's LP forum and there may only be 1 to 2 posts a day in each category.

I would never join a forum where they would have me as a moderator.

craigb
Having been a senior moderator on a different forum for over ten years, one thing that worked for us was a tiered approach.  Certain people always stand out as potential moderator candidates so, in a forum that's private for the senior moderators, it's discussed who to offer the job to.  This person (or persons) is then given some power and a probation period.  If they prove they can handle it, AND they still want to handle it (some find they don't feel comfortable), then they are made a full moderator.  
 
The nastier stuff like banning a member, fixing the database and forum maintenance is left to the senior mods, but the bulk of the day-to-day stuff is handled at the standard moderator level (most of what Craig mentioned above).  Usually, these moderators can fix things in a post (malformed links, typos, removing duplicate posts, censoring the occasional expletive), subtly intervene in a hot topic to keep it civil, or lock a topic that is either started by a troll/spammer or getting out of hand.  They are required to add a line to the topic to show they've been in there (e.g., "[Edit:  Fixed typo in link. - John Smith]") and they also put links to any topics they lock in a moderators forum for discussion.  They aren't allowed to delete non-duplicate topics (after a review a senior moderator would either do this, or simply moved the locked topic to the moderator forum so it can be referred back to later).  They're also not allowed to punish members (only a senior moderator can ban a member temporarily or permanently).
 
Failure to add an edit line or put a link in the moderators forum can lead to losing their moderator status.  Knowing these checks and balances are there make the rest of the members feel better about being moderated.  Unexplained edits or topic locking causes a LOT of friction and, usually, a mass exodus of members.  If they show they are responsible then, eventually, they may be asked to be a senior moderator if a vacancy occurs.  We've only had to fill two in the last 11 years when one got a new job and started his own forum and another passed away so this isn't something that happens often!
 
For comparison, this other forum has about 260,000 posts over the last four years and five months (we prune down to four years every March) with almost 4,700 members.  The forum is actually much quieter now than it used to be compared to the 2007-2012 time frame when we had over 58 million page hits.

Yes, this.
 
That is a much more experienced description of what I was hamfistedly trying to convey above. Considering this is new, therefore there aren't any senior mods yet, the current Admins (the Bakers and Craig A) would act as the senior mods for a year or so.
 
Moderation will always tick someone off and it is easy for mods to get out of control. It is all about wise choices that will reflect the will of the site owners... in this case an actual business enterprise outside of the webosphere (Cake is in the software business... not the internet forum business). I think compared to other popular chat sites that makes this scenario a little unique. You don't really see many folks going to the Korg or Steinberg sites just to hang out like you do here which also says something about the tight knit nature of the Cake community which this forum has been crucial in forming.
 
I've said it before... this forum was actually a pretty big factor in me choosing Cake for my new DAW. That's was before I even created this account. I was too stupid to go it alone or deal with smarmy prats on the other sites so knowing there were users willing to actually help was a bonus.

OK, seriously now. 
 
A sub forum for software deals vs software discussion would be better.
 
A true junk OT forum where stuff that doesn't fit anywhere or is closed is needed. Contrary to (limited, IMO) popular belief the CH is a self disciplined sub forum with a pretty tight family. We don't appreciate people dropping their trash on our lawn.
 
I prefer "Fun Town" over "Cake Hole" (which in the US is called "Pie Hole" Alex). Coffee House is as apropos as anything else IMO.
 
WRT to mod abuse; one man's abuse is another man's justified action. Heck we saw a pretty high spirited thread over Anderton's justified action. It's the age old problem of who moderates the mods?
 
In the end it's Cakewalk's forum and they will do what they want. Hopefully the majority of us will be happy with what they do.