^^ Really good point about the bass there. I was mostly commenting on the lower mid portion of the sound that kind of dominated the guitars a little rather than the overall bass, so well said - the bass probably doesn't need to come down in general as I first mentioned, but the EQ is making the wrong part of the sound pop out too much.
 
It's a bit of a juggling act with the kick drums though. You need low in the bass to give it thump, but that can step all over your kick drums too, and then the only way to hear them is to up the click. I think anyone who has listened to a lot of early 90s metal will know that "pencil hitting an ice cream container" kick drum sound! HAHA! Not my favourite kick sound, I must say!   It's especially tricky when you've got a lot of constant 16th note kicks going because there's nowhere for the bass to actually breathe. Complimentary EQ is your friend here for sure - carve out a space on each instrument as much as you can so you're not stepping on the other.
 
I've found that if you can't alter the arrangement for whatever reason (hey, some songs SHOULD be that busy - a good bulk of what I'm known for is) then you may need to go to extremes in the mix with sidechaining or multiband EQ to juggle both if all else fails. Not something you'd want to do unless you're out of options, mind you!
 
A great example is a guitar buss. When you've got a bunch of rhythm guitar layers together, sounds can really add up, especially for any chunky muted parts. If EQing them to fix the "woof" is taking too much away from the body of the sound, sometimes a cleverly set multiband which only triggers when the chunks get too crazy on the guitar buss is a good way to fix that. That way when you're sending everything to your master out, you don't have this rogue intermittent problem low end making things hard to work with. That idea can work with kick and bass as well, although I'd personally try to automate and EQ first before getting to that stage if at all possible.

Danny Danzi

Jarsve
on this I used EZdrummer 2 and that has a fantastic humanizing future built in.

It takes more than humanising to make realistic drums. Velocity settings are even more important in my opinion. Your drum sounds are good, it just doesn't sound as realistic as it can. It's good you have ezd2 because it should be easy to fix. The purpose of my message to beeps about the drums was to point out why drums can sound fake.
 
-Danny

Of course! But i just marked that so that you know what drums are on my mix. And i have tried out with and without the humanizing and it is there for a reason. But of course, i dont have your standards. I dont hear everything you guys do. So for me it works fantastic. If i just could learn to mix better i would be a happy old man.
By the way, i use the EZX Metal Machine kit found here
http://www.toontrack.com/product/metal-machine-ezx/
 

Lord Tim
 
It's a bit of a juggling act with the kick drums though. You need low in the bass to give it thump, but that can step all over your kick drums too, and then the only way to hear them is to up the click. I think anyone who has listened to a lot of early 90s metal will know that "pencil hitting an ice cream container" kick drum sound! HAHA! Not my favourite kick sound, I must say!   It's especially tricky when you've got a lot of constant 16th note kicks going because there's nowhere for the bass to actually breathe. Complimentary EQ is your friend here for sure - carve out a space on each instrument as much as you can so you're not stepping on the other.
 
I've found that if you can't alter the arrangement for whatever reason (hey, some songs SHOULD be that busy - a good bulk of what I'm known for is) then you may need to go to extremes in the mix with sidechaining or multiband EQ to juggle both if all else fails. Not something you'd want to do unless you're out of options, mind you!
 
A great example is a guitar buss. When you've got a bunch of rhythm guitar layers together, sounds can really add up, especially for any chunky muted parts. If EQing them to fix the "woof" is taking too much away from the body of the sound, sometimes a cleverly set multiband which only triggers when the chunks get too crazy on the guitar buss is a good way to fix that. That way when you're sending everything to your master out, you don't have this rogue intermittent problem low end making things hard to work with. That idea can work with kick and bass as well, although I'd personally try to automate and EQ first before getting to that stage if at all possible.

Beeps.....Lord Tim (bows) is so spot on with the above, I'm not going to say much this time other than read this over and over. Tim's guitar example is freakin' spot on too. Not that you need to apply that to your guitars right now in this song, but his example is a great one and something you may be faced with in the future.
 
Notice how he mentions using sidechaining and multiband "if all else fails"? I've said this as well many times all over the forum.....proof I'm not totally out of my tree and someone else shares the same beliefs as me. LOL!
 
His music is also a good representation for you to listen to as it has the elements of what you need and are shooting for. He's got the clicky kick, which is needed in this style, and you can hear his bass without feeling loads of low end mud. In this style of music, as soon as you load up with too much sub low end, you're toast. It has to sound a little poppy and brighter or you lose the elements as well as hearing all the progressive lines. Tim also has insane back up vocal layers in his stuff.....you have to really mix stuff tight in order to hear a vocal layer like that so clear while maintaining your backing music. Not easy...well done, Tim.
 
Just remember....less is more, beeps. Sometimes it's what you don't do that allows your mix to shine. Getting too deep can sometimes ruin things. When you eq correctly and compress correctly (assuming the right sounds were chosen and printed) a mix should take 2-4 hours with 6 being extreme depending on how much you have going on. I don't hear any instruments in this song that make me want to say "recut that" other than....I can't hear the bass to make that call, and the vocals just have a bad delivery even though she has a good voice. That's going to be an interesting one....I may want to take a stab at that vocal along with some stems just to see how I'd end up dealing with that. I don't think I've ever had to deal with a voice like that before. At any rate....good luck with the fixes. You've gotten some really killer information from good guys in this thread. Good luck man!
 
-Danny
 

Jarsve
 
Of course! But i just marked that so that you know what drums are on my mix. And i have tried out with and without the humanizing and it is there for a reason. But of course, i dont have your standards. I dont hear everything you guys do. So for me it works fantastic. If i just could learn to mix better i would be a happy old man.
By the way, i use the EZX Metal Machine kit found here
http://www.toontrack.com/product/metal-machine-ezx/
 

Yeah beeps told us that yesterday....it's all his fault now! Hahaha! :) He'll fix it...or we'll help him. :)
 
Don't be too hard on yourself....your mixes are good too man. You sort of had the problem beeps had....having a hard time judging low end. Low end is the problem for most of us and even more of a problem when someone mixes through headphones. Some guys can do it....others struggle. I know I sure did. The sub helped me and good monitors helped even more. I know a lot of guys don't have this option because of living space, apartments etc. The problem there is they will never overcome mixing issues until they can use real speakers in my opinion. Even there, the speakers need to be eq'd to be flat or you lose there too.
 
Until people can get some good stuff, they are always going to be in the "demo" end of the spectrum. You move up to "nearly major label quality" when you have good monitors with correction, can pick and choose the right sounds, know how to eq and keep sounds out of each others way and compress things so they don't lash out over other instruments. You also spend less time mixing because you hear what you are supposed to hear. These days if I work on a sound more than 30 minutes, the sound is trashed and reprinted. That said, those days are rare for me because I can tell whether or not a sound is going to be a problem 8 out of 10 times. Sure I blow it once in a while because I'm human...lol....but most of the time I make the right decisions.
 
Just don't be too hard on yourself. If you want big boy sounds, you have to think like the big boys, create sounds like the big boys and be able to make the right calls on the gear you have. Take one of those away and you're closer to "demo" than "wow that sounds like a commercial release!"
 
-Danny

Hi, guys. As I expressed to Danny privately all this has been kicking up some great plans/ideas, a lot of which I had been considering but being inexperienced I was unsure of so seeing veterans laying it out for me is excellent and helping me sort out some of my nagging issues. I also made some stupid mistakes/assumptions about the low end.
 
This project, as I mentioned, was more of a test of my current skills and a way to try out a ton of techniques/tools/etc I had previously only read/thought about. It has served that purpose well and more. The stuff being discussed here though is, to me, "next level" which is exactly what I need. Absolutely brilliant.
 
It's not about this project specifically really. It's more about what I intend to to in the future (but this project is gonna get another huge push to try out all these ideas and I have some really nutty creative plans for it as well).
 
However my mind at the moment has been completely veered off course on the news of a long time friend passing... and apparently quite some time ago without anyone telling me as well as some other rather upsetting news of some nasty accidents and illnesses leaving other people I care about in not so good shape.
 
Just can't seem to get my head into the complexities of all the wonderful advice posted here. Well, I can but I can't summon myself up to address it all in any coherent way.
 
So yeah, I'm gonna have to apologize again for not replying to everyone today. I'm okay but just can't get my head in the game. I should be able to shake it off by tomorrow.
 
It all makes perfect sense though and I am extremely thankful to everyone for their input.
 
Cheers and many thanks.

Sorry to hear of the bad news and your loss, beeps. No worries...we're not going anywhere. Take care of business brother...and hang in there. Wishing you and your people the best.
 
-Danny

yeah. this is sad. hope you kan make sense of his soon, and be there for your fiends.

Yeah, that's awful news. All the best, man!
 

Danny Danzi
Tim also has insane back up vocal layers in his stuff.....you have to really mix stuff tight in order to hear a vocal layer like that so clear while maintaining your backing music. Not easy...well done, Tim.

 
Cheers, Danny - I appreciate that! 
 
Yeah, I think if there's one thing my main band is known for, it's either the solos or the huge choruses, and the only way to really get that big choir sound is layer after layer after layer of vocals, and panning each group of voices across the stereo image.
 
I've tried a few things in the past with doublers and chorus plugins, etc. and it can definitely sound good, but if you want to get that huge Def Leppard / Leatherwolf / Dokken choir effect, there's only one way to do it - the slow and tedious manual way! Argh! That said, I don't know if I'll still recommend it after my next 150+ voice layered chorus... it always takes a couple of days to appreciate the work rather than just hating the effort it took! HAHA!
 
Beeps - when you're back in the groove with it all, feel free to pick my brain about this stuff if you like. I'm hearing a lot of similarities with our styles so a lot of what I do could help out. But as I said earlier, there's been some killer advice from everyone in this thread so far. Lots of talented and knowledgeable people on these forums!

Lord Tim
 
Cheers, Danny - I appreciate that! 
 
Yeah, I think if there's one thing my main band is known for, it's either the solos or the huge choruses, and the only way to really get that big choir sound is layer after layer after layer of vocals, and panning each group of voices across the stereo image.
 
I've tried a few things in the past with doublers and chorus plugins, etc. and it can definitely sound good, but if you want to get that huge Def Leppard / Leatherwolf / Dokken choir effect, there's only one way to do it - the slow and tedious manual way! Argh! That said, I don't know if I'll still recommend it after my next 150+ voice layered chorus... it always takes a couple of days to appreciate the work rather than just hating the effort it took! HAHA!
 

Not a problem, we're into the same stuff.....so I can appreciate the work that goes with it. It's not easy getting that (I hate to say this....but I'm not sure how else to.) 80's type production. I love it because of the challenge as well as actually using effects and creating that "produced sound". It beats a lot of the now sounding production that only entails aggression, compression and everything so dry. I used to do the 150 vocals too Tim...one day I just said "enough"....I can't pull it off live unless I cheat and I never have cheated in a live situation. If I can't physically perform the parts, I don't put them on the album. That's not a bash on you or anyone else that does....I just got tired of taking days singing over and over and over. I HAVE done it in the past though.
 
Suggestion for you that may be something you may like. Ever hear of Clone Ensemble? www.cloneensemble.com it used to be. Really killer plug that can give you something close to your layered sound in half the time. I've been using this for years but have really been using it with stacks of vocals recently. For example, I had a client here that did a Christmas song. In the end he wanted this choir to come in a little at a time. Well there were only two of us and I really didn't feel like doing 150 vocals, using formants, whisper tracks and all that other stuff.
 
We sang low, mid, high and super high at the same time (two vocals per part) giving us 16 vocals. 8 left, 8 right. From there I added that clone ensemble thing which simulated 32 more voices, women, children and some really nifty delay and choir effects. It's not perfect and has some artifacts if you're not careful, but man...if you get it just right, put a stereo spreader on the vocal bus after all the processing and listen back....it's pretty sick! Not quite as good as doing what you do and I used to do, but to me...acceptable enough. I'll see if I can post that part of the song so you can check it out. If I can save a brother from 150 vocal tracks and 3-4 days of work, you better believe I'm gonna try! LOL!! I so don't miss doing that. God Bless you for keeping that flame alive.
 
I remember doing it on my tape machine and bouncing down and then sending the bounce down to my sampler, then doing it again and again and again and then flying the vocals in via sample trigger button press on the chorus parts having to record them in real time. All the while attempting to get the start and stop points just right without a tempo map! Hahahaha....the good old days!
 
Anyway, I'll see if my client will allow me to show you that choir part.
 
-Danny

Hi, guys. Thanks for the kind thoughts. Another hapless victim of the poppy scourge it seems which, in the case of this individual, is quite shocking to me. Never woulda thunk it. As I've been thinking on it this fellow had a lot of influence on the infancy of my most important project back as a spunky little street urchin. He was never into that sh*t so... yeah. Very confusing and infuriating to me. I'll work through it.
 
I'll have to apologize again for not ripping right into all this today because it seems to be mangling me a bit more than I expected so I just went nuts on setting up a revamping of that old project that turned into a surprisingly good "five minute mix" of the original tracks for me to work with (touching on Danny's thoughts on getting things done quickly).
 
I guess biting off more than I could chew on this massive project has sped me up for simpler things which is great.
 
Scurrying off to something a little simpler and testing some things out being brought up here seems like it might help.
 
Mostly though I just want to adress Lord Tim...
 
I've seen you post some really cool info in the past but we've never really chatted. It's funny you stopped by here because I actually checked out your "The 80's Called" posting around the time I exported this and compared it to my humble mix. You have that clarity and depth that Danny and others have I am always chasing.
 
Not a lot of metalheads/hardcore dudes around with the insight on how to really nail this crap so I am very happy to have your input.
 
Danny, bats and the rest of the lads of course know (or should know) they get much love from old Beeps but I wanted to give you props and thanks.
 
As a truncated version of where my thoughts are going on this...
 
1) I need a dynamic EQ plug. I may use this as an excuse to demo Melda Spectral Dynamics which I have wanted for a while. Probably out of my price range still but we'll see and I do need to try it out on something crazy like this. I have other tricks I've learned using the automation output from the old Cakewalk Analyst to control EQ params which may have to do for now as well as carefully key'd sidechaining as mentioned.
 
2) I need to readjust some of my bandpasses particularly on the bass and/or kick and maybe on the rhythm guits. Lots to explain there so I won't bother just yet.
 
3) I'm thinking I need to create a PROPER "fake" mastering scheme on my mix project's premaster buss. Like just a general example of what a mastering engineer may use on something like this such as saturation, compression, bass expansion, stereo widener, hi pass at 20hz, etc. I know very little about this stuff but being able to "guesstimate" what a mastering house may do, tossing it at the end of my chain, and a/bing the raw mix and the "fake" master chain might be beneficial. I have NO freaking clue as to how such a chain would be set up though and have only studied this a little.
 
That's where my head's going once it starts working again but as I said... just popping in again to say thanks and not seem like I've meandered off into lalaland completely.
 
Cheers, doods. Ya'll are awesome. I'll unbreak myself soon.
 
 Oh and of course the drums and vocals and... well a bunch of stuff are gonna get ripped into. Honestly I kind of left a lot of that half finished. This mix was kind of an "overall" sound type thing that needed some insight before a got my balls up to get fancy but the ideas presented here on those elements have helped really defined what needs to be done in those areas.
 
Epic thread is epic.

Beepster
 
1) I need a dynamic EQ plug. I may use this as an excuse to demo Melda Spectral Dynamics which I have wanted for a while. Probably out of my price range still but we'll see and I do need to try it out on something crazy like this. I have other tricks I've learned using the automation output from the old Cakewalk Analyst to control EQ params which may have to do for now as well as carefully key'd sidechaining as mentioned.

 
I gotta chime in here man. You're over-thinking things and can use the Sonar multi-band if need be that you already have. I really don't think you need to go this route and are just going into directions you really don't need to be going in just yet. Concentrate on getting a bare bones mix sounding great with all the right stuff as well as being consistent. You should be able to kill with the stock Sonar pro channel stuff as well as the other plugs offered.
 

Beepster 
2) I need to readjust some of my bandpasses particularly on the bass and/or kick and maybe on the rhythm guits. Lots to explain there so I won't bother just yet.

 
This is a definite. Just make sure you are hearing the right things within your monitor situation to make the right calls here.
 

Beepster
3) I'm thinking I need to create a PROPER "fake" mastering scheme on my mix project's premaster buss. Like just a general example of what a mastering engineer may use on something like this such as saturation, compression, bass expansion, stereo widener, hi pass at 20hz, etc. I know very little about this stuff but being able to "guesstimate" what a mastering house may do, tossing it at the end of my chain, and a/bing the raw mix and the "fake" master chain might be beneficial. I have NO freaking clue as to how such a chain would be set up though and have only studied this a little.

 
For what it's worth, I have to disagree. The reason being...worry about a good mix first man. You are diving into so much stuff you are not going to grasp anything if you're not careful. Get a mix that stands on its own without any mastering first. This ensures you can mix right with all the right stuff. THEN worry about polishing things up. One thing at a time beeps.....you'll never get this stuff sucking in too much. Ever take a huge hit of happy smoke back in the day? So huge, you cough to get off because you bit off more than you could chew? That's what's going to happen here. Baby steps man.....focus on getting the mix right, the instruments tight, low end and kick/bass talking to each other without walking on each other, and those vocals sounding right.
 
In saying that, don't take it wrong to where it deters your progress. But you have to be able to make something work at a bare minimum before you move into all this insane production. For example, I wouldn't mind hearing the piece you are working on with 2 rhythm guitars, the lead guitar, bass, drums, lead vocal and the back ups. Anything more as well as guitar layering or vocal back ups.....pass on for now. It's not a song that needs extreme production at THIS time if you can't nail the bare bones, ya know? Let's hear how good you can make it sound stripped down first so you can get your feet wet. Can you see my point and where I'm going with this?
 
I keep hearing you mention that you want to do this that this and that.....all well and good brother, but I'd personally like to hear the minimum so we can at least hear what you are doing more clearly without a bunch of stuff cluttering things up. It's easier to pinpoint the issues and help you fix them. By all means experiment and keep your lab work going. But if you really want help with this stuff, it is my opinion that we need to scale it down. Less is more until you get this and graduate to bigger production and really learn to deal with that.
 
So control that will to go nuts for right now brother and think about a scaled down approach. It will help you more in my opinion and will keep your moral up. It's like when we teach guitar. I like to teach my students something hard to challenge them, but not TOO hard. With that something hard comes something easy and cool to keep moral as well as momentum. Too much stuff and you can lose your way as well as your desire because it's a constant mountain to climb every day. It shouldn't have to be like that. :) Think it over.
 
-Danny