• Techniques
  • Ok...So Jeff Was Right About VU Meters-Actually Are Pretty Handy lol!
2015/07/14 21:13:26
BenMMusTech
https://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks/the-organik-eye
 
Ok I've been busy working on my mixing and mastering technique over the last 3 weeks...waiting to start my Fine Arts research degree.  Even though I've been close in regards to mixing and mastering and even by luck have had good results, last night it all fell into place...see above link...the vocal isn't my best...it was done in 2005, and I'm a much better vocalist now but I worked out after setting up a mix, you need to go back and tighten everything...so in effect mix twice.
 
First you need to set the mix...this includes the gain stage...I've found that Sonar is a very comprehensive in regards to "its sound"...meaning all the components interact.  By using the Pro Channel compressors...I only have the two included ones, I was able to set the average for the individual tracks at the "standard" of -18 to -12 RMS...note you need to set your meters to RMS and Peak.  Because the components of the song were recorded somewhat badly 10 years ago with nothing more than a Behringer Ultra-Gain and a 150 dollar Audio Technica mic, I was limited in what I could do to get a better sound, the above components were fed into an unbalanced Creamware audio connection, and were compressed badly on the way into the system.  But by using the Pro Channel master buss compressor set to limit or 10:1 ratio, I was still able to turn the tracks up to the above average and catch the peaks.  I would then carve out the EQ, using the black backdrop theory, sometimes using E Type EQ...which whilst dipping the selected frequency band also raise's the preceding frequency band-audio engineers call this a "musical" type EQ, my point is experiment with the Pro Channel EQ...you will be amazed by the results.  Personally I only need one more type of EQ...which the ubiquitous Pultech and I'd be happy.  I also did some compression with Pro Channel channel compressor and once I figured it out...I was amazed at how "musical" the result was.  Finally I used the console emulator to catch the peaks...once you figure out what you are listening for...you will be amazed at how it affects the sound http://blog.cakewalk.com/console-emulation-in-sonar/ this was particularly useful in deciding which console emulation to use.  One of the mistakes I was making was using the console emulator in one way...i.e. using the N Type across the mix, rather than experiment to see which one sounds right.  Although I would use a one size fit's all, if I was mixing just an acoustic track or a rock track but experiment.  Another thing to do is whilst your pulling a mix together...but before you set the levels...check your pan law...if the pan law is set to zero, you will find the mix bunches up in the middle...it's alight if you want that sound, but it also means there is less head room...if you want a wider sound change the pan law to minus 3...I think minus six is for broadcast...TV and Video.
 
Here is a bit of controversy...it doesn't matter if your individual channels are hot or peaking...lets clarify this...on the way into your DAW, when the recording signal is going through the converters...peaking is a NO!...but once it's inside the DAW, because of 32 bit and 64 bit processing...the dynamic range is much larger...I'm not saying burn your way to the top...use your ears but a few DB over once inside the box is fine...use the console emulator to tame the peaks somewhat too, and if you set the compressor right...this will make a marked difference as well.
 
Once the mix is set up...and this is where I was making a huge mistake...I could go yea ha and just master, you need to finesse the mix or mix a second time.  HERE IS WHERE JEFF IS RIGHT ABOUT VU METERS...over the last few weeks I've been getting really good results but sometimes the mix would not fall into place, transients would smear...things would sound out of time and out of tune...the mix just would not jell.  So last night I went back and tuned all the compressors and EQ...and wham...the vocal which was a bit wonky or the timing that was a bit wonky...fell into place.  I know ball park settings, so this is how I would set up the mix...ball park settings, because I have terrible concentration I wasn't really listening but after my ADHD medication last night I was able to sink into the mix and just slowly tighten every little transient...and JEFF IS RIGHT, those VU meters-even the virtual ones rock back and forth in a particular way, which indicates you have the settings right...I knew this already...its something you learn in audio school but it does get a bit boring when Jeff rabbits on about it and in particular when he starts telling newbies to go and buy the real thing...but I will concede he is right.
 
Anyway, I will one day get a screen capture program and do some tutorials...I'm always broke because I'm an unsuccessful polymath...always too busy at the coal face of new ideas...or this is how it seems.  But I think if you listen to this https://thedigitalpoet55....-organik-eye/ and read over what I've just read you might get a better understanding of how to mix in Sonar and how Sonar is a complete mixing environment and how all the components interact with one another to create "a sound" a very musical sound but I'd be happy to answer any questions...I haven't really spoke about how I set up the mix and effects buss's which I use a similar technique but it is slightly different-this is where I use the tape emulator but that's another day.
 
Cheers Ben 
2015/07/15 04:05:24
synkrotron
Nice write up Ben.
 
I'm in a quandary now, because I had all but given up on anything to do with the ProChannel and its plug-ins, which I know is a waste, having spent so much money on the extra bits and pieces. I do not have the skills to set up compressors and what have you from scratch and, unlike third party plug-ins, the PC plugs do not come with presets, which would at least give me a starting point.
 
I bought the VUMT plug a couple of years ago, when Jeff recommended them to me, but since then I have never got to grips with them.
 
I am currently trying to mix a project that wasn't recorded by me, and I am using that to try and understand gain staging and getting levels right through the signal path, and, to say the least, I am not having a good time. I'm mixing the project, and it sounds okay, but I have not been paying any mind to all the stuff that is being discussed in the Techniques forum lately.
 
I think I'm okay with the principles of sound sculpting with EQ in order to make room for everything. At least in theory... I'm still winging it when it comes to applying my cuts though.
 
Anyway, onwards and upwards, and thanks for your words above...
 
cheers
 
andy
2015/07/15 05:43:01
BenMMusTech
synkrotron
Nice write up Ben.
 
I'm in a quandary now, because I had all but given up on anything to do with the ProChannel and its plug-ins, which I know is a waste, having spent so much money on the extra bits and pieces. I do not have the skills to set up compressors and what have you from scratch and, unlike third party plug-ins, the PC plugs do not come with presets, which would at least give me a starting point.
 
I bought the VUMT plug a couple of years ago, when Jeff recommended them to me, but since then I have never got to grips with them.
 
I am currently trying to mix a project that wasn't recorded by me, and I am using that to try and understand gain staging and getting levels right through the signal path, and, to say the least, I am not having a good time. I'm mixing the project, and it sounds okay, but I have not been paying any mind to all the stuff that is being discussed in the Techniques forum lately.
 
I think I'm okay with the principles of sound sculpting with EQ in order to make room for everything. At least in theory... I'm still winging it when it comes to applying my cuts though.
 
Anyway, onwards and upwards, and thanks for your words above...
 
cheers
 
andy




Hey Andy, thanks...I'm just reporting my experiments...it's taken me 15 years to get to this point...although I've been to Audio School ugh...three degrees...none of them taught me the skills I have now...although I did pick up a tip or two but my point is it takes time...the last mix of yours that I had a listen to sounded pretty good...I was impressed.
 
Gain staging...it's a black art and one that I'm still making mistakes with...ADHD.  The thing is and I'm not sure the "pros" will agree...they tend to ignore me because I've offended their sense of propitiatory...lol...they should of course understand I have ADHD/ASD and I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut...oh and I waffle ;) but the thing is with gain staging...break it down into the individual components...don't worry about the master buss till the end...it does not matter if the master buss is clipping...oh the "pros" won't like that...as I said in my previous post...absolutely worry about the input that goes through the converter...but once it's in...all your trying to do is get each track to be even...aim for -18 to -12 db RMS and the closer to -12 the better...and it does not matter if the channel is in the red...in fact-in theory the emulator plugs all have a sweet spot...so going into the red can produce pleasing results...your going to do some levelling anyway so it's unlikely the channel will actually clip...only internally.  64 bit internal processing...not computing means that the dynamic range of the plugin is huge...I'd have to look up the number...even older 32 bit plugins have a huge dynamic range!!  Don't be afraid to use the gain stage or trim pot on each of the channel either...they are your best friend and one of the reasons Sonar is the best DAW in DAW land...the mixer actually behaves like a real mixer!!...amazing I know!!
 
Once you have set up the mix...i.e. the gain stage...then start bussing stuff...drums into a buss...sometimes bass and drums together...particularly for rock and pop...even a bit of parallel compression can do wonders for that sort of production...the 1176 Pro Channel actually lets you blend the wet and dry signal...so there is no need to parallel compress the old way...sorry your probably lost with this...effects buss are just as important in regards to gain staging too...make sure you aim for the -18 RMS again...I don't think that it's as important to go much higher...use the tape sim as a mild compressor and tone control...it's really cool for that...this should be first in the chain after EQ and effects...then use the console emulator just to round it out...http://blog.cakewalk.com/...lation-in-sonar/  this helps in choosing the type of emulator you need...just concentrate and train your ears to hear what's going on...I'm almost 40...so my hearing isn't what it's use to be!  You'd be amazed at what you can train your ears to hear...true story.
 
Finally use the gain stage on the master buss when you are ready for mastering and turn it down...I tend to listen to the track a few times...work out how far I am over...normal about 4db I then turn the gain stage down 6db...giving me about 3db of headroom for mastering...although I'm still working on this theory...I use the linear phase EQ to scoop some low and top end...then place the tape emulator over that...just to turn down the mix another db and catch the very top peaks finally a master buss console emulator...then I master as normal.
 
The point is gain staging...is done in stages...and all the time...you are constantly re-jigging the gain stage.
 
I don't have my audio school books with me...so I can't really help with compression settings...and the attack and release times don't really correspond with the pro channel attack and release.
 
Once I get some screen capture software...I will make some tute vids.
 
Ben
2015/07/15 06:02:51
synkrotron
Hi Ben,
 
I am currently doing some experimenting of my own, as it happens... I'm working on a mix that bitflipper pointed us too last week, a track called Upper Hand, and it comes with all the required audio files, all ready for mixing.
 
I threw a mix together in a couple of hours, but I've totally ripped that up now and I'm starting from scratch, trying to take on board all the different things that peeps are saying about gain staging and what have you.
 
At one point I did a batch convert in Audition 3 in order to normalise each wave file to -6dB, just because some of the tracks were so low in comparison to the others. But I've scrapped that idea now too, because the consensus is that you should not have to do this.
 
I'm going to post my own topic as soon as I think I am making some headway with understanding things.
 
I'm not having much luck with the VU meters, by the way... I guess I don't have the skill, as yet, to understand what they are telling me. And the difference between trying to read RMS for a drum or percussion track and say a guitar track is doing my effing head in...
 
Another aside... I have started, today, experimenting with putting Pro-L as the first effect in the bin, and using its meters to try and grasp the levels, not to limit as such. So that's interesting...
 
back to the grind...........................
2015/07/15 06:24:42
BenMMusTech
https://thedigitalpoet55.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/the-organik-dream/
 
This is a much better example...better recording!
 
Hi Andy...gosh normalizing tracks...I've never done that...but that is what gain staging using the trim within Sonar is for...it's much better to use the trim knob because you can go back and turn it up or down!! I'm not sure who is telling you should not turn the track up...if the track is suppose to be soft just be judicious...are you saying -6db peak...I hope so...just remember to turn the RMS meters on in Sonar.
 
Ben  
2015/07/15 07:31:05
synkrotron
Haha! Yeah, -6dB peak 
 
I need to remind myself, but I think I was normalising the tracks before mixing because I felt the 18dB boost available via the Gain knob at the top still wasn't enough. I've moved on now though, and I'm back to the original wave files provided.
 
When I get around to it, I am going to post some pictures of the different wave files, showing the differences in the recorded levels of each track, and screen shots of my EQ settings and what have you.
 
It is an interesting voyage, for sure, and a voyage that I thought I had already completed...
 
Interesting example there Ben... Quite a clear mix that.
 
cheers
 
andy
2015/07/15 07:59:11
synkrotron
BenMMusTech
just remember to turn the RMS meters on in Sonar.

 
Yeah, Ben, I've done that now.
 
I'm also switching between Pre (to check gain) and Post (for mixing level). Am I doing that right?
 
I should start off my own topic on this, with the tracks involved...
2015/07/15 09:41:21
Jeff Evans
I am always right about VU meters
 
I don't expect people to build real ones either. I am merely saying there is something slightly nice about how they move compared to a VST. It is a nice thing to do if you decide to build a hardware version. You have to be a bit keen though.
 
The VU in another plugin in a chain may not be anything like the real movement or a well designed VST. It can still indicate level accurately but the ballistics may be out.
 
In mastering they can be invaluable. Also on tracks the moment you apply compression to something like an very uncompressed track they move differently. They start not overshooting so much. And they accelerate and fall back differently with attack and release settings on compressors.
2015/07/15 09:50:31
synkrotron
Hi Jeff,
 
I think the problem is, for me at any rate, is that peeps like yourself are so used to looking at VU meters that you can read and see so much, where as all I see is a needle going up and down. It's probably going to take more time than I have left of my life to learn how to read one of those things, and fully understand what I am seeing.
 
I can understand, I guess, what you are saying, with regards to how the needle moves differently  when looking at compressed tracks versus uncompressed tracks. I can see, in my mind's eye, that the uncompressed track will send the needle up and down in large sweeps, whereas with a compressed track, the needle will tend to hover more or less around the same level.
 
I am trying though, really I am... And I've just finished one of my own projects so I suppose this is a good time to look at mixing specifically, rather than trying to compose something new...
2015/07/15 10:06:59
batsbrew
people that record their signals too hot,
even if not peaking,
have 'crunchy' sounding mixes, to me.
 
using up all available headroom on each individual track,
is like chasing your tail.
gets you nowhere, quickly.
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