• Techniques
  • Ok...So Jeff Was Right About VU Meters-Actually Are Pretty Handy lol! (p.3)
2015/07/16 03:13:51
Jeff Evans
I have always stated it is good to have both types of metering. VU rms and digital peak.  Back in the days I sometimes felt there was not enough interest in peak instantaneous levels with tape machines and things, it was always about rms.  When we shifted over to digital they got all careful about peak metering and seemed to have pushed rms metering aside. Most DAW's now are showing some form of rms indicator too. You just have to use it.  It is the actual body of the signal and the most important part so why not meter it nice.
 
Rms and peak combined they tell the whole story. Once some signals get real fast, transient and short, the VU is not going to show much. Peak readings mean more.
 
But you can put back the rms metering and keep that consistent across all parts of your signal flow and let the heights of the peaks vary. None of them will bring the clip light on. The headroom of the system will take care of it.  You still need some distance between the loudest peak in the recording and 0 dB FS though.  I don't see 10dB as being bad. 6 dB is cutting it fine in case something gets loud and it can.  It is not hard to add 6 dB to a snare hit.
 
 
2015/07/18 07:19:01
BenMMusTech
Ok...so I'm a bit of a fool...I've just realized...I use VU meters albeit digital ones all the time!!  And they are ****ing handy...sorry about that Jeff :)
2015/07/18 12:33:43
Beepster
Jeff is one of the guys I try to pay attention to whenever he posts. Most of the time I don't even understand the stuff he's talking about but it's obvious the dude is experienced and it seems like his experience is based in old school stuff... like from back when you REALLY had to know WTF you were doing to make the gear work as opposed to just slapping a preset on something. I figure just by reading posts like that (from him and others) I can at least absorb terms and concepts to read up on further. I do not have the luxury of going to college for this stuff so I'm like a greedy little sponge in that regard. Thank cripes I found this forum or I'd have no bloody hope.
 
He's also a wicked nice guy.
2015/07/18 16:03:47
Jeff Evans
Thanks guys appreciate it.  I don't mind talking about VU's and things at all.  I am more old school but definitely combined with newer concepts too.  Some of my early teachers were very precise about levels being consistent through a system or a chain of devices.  Metering for me just makes sense when you take the VU metering form the past and put it into the digital world we have now. And add peak metering at the same time.
 
Ben as you say you have been metering digitally now anyway.  Many DAW's put the rms level into their metering.  Some take it a little further.  The issue with how the modern DAW shows rms is that it is a small line that hovers a long way down on the scale and that rms indicator may not move that correctly either.  What I do like is the older VU with the needle on the scale and seeing it move the way it does.
 
That rms level now jumps right up to 0 dB VU now on our scale which is almost all the way over.  Our ref level is now very clear. The first job of the VU is to show level. (after calibration) The ballistics of a quality real VU are nice to look at.  VST's are doing a good job of it so far.  It is something that needs to be emulated just as much as say reverb does.  It may be hard to emulate something that moves so well in the physical world.  Could be like flanging.  The use of tape machines just produces a certain sound that way that can be very hard to emulate.
 
2015/07/18 21:20:07
BenMMusTech
Jeff Evans
Thanks guys appreciate it.  I don't mind talking about VU's and things at all.  I am more old school but definitely combined with newer concepts too.  Some of my early teachers were very precise about levels being consistent through a system or a chain of devices.  Metering for me just makes sense when you take the VU metering form the past and put it into the digital world we have now. And add peak metering at the same time.
 
Ben as you say you have been metering digitally now anyway.  Many DAW's put the rms level into their metering.  Some take it a little further.  The issue with how the modern DAW shows rms is that it is a small line that hovers a long way down on the scale and that rms indicator may not move that correctly either.  What I do like is the older VU with the needle on the scale and seeing it move the way it does.
 
That rms level now jumps right up to 0 dB VU now on our scale which is almost all the way over.  Our ref level is now very clear. The first job of the VU is to show level. (after calibration) The ballistics of a quality real VU are nice to look at.  VST's are doing a good job of it so far.  It is something that needs to be emulated just as much as say reverb does.  It may be hard to emulate something that moves so well in the physical world.  Could be like flanging.  The use of tape machines just produces a certain sound that way that can be very hard to emulate.
 


Actually it was the VU Meter on the Waves H-Comp which gave me the heads up...it's a needle VU, I was using it to set the attack and release of a very tricky track I was trying to master...it's sonic art piece-from my Honours project from last year, with filtering so the track is all over the place...I realized Id been a double dip****...I really needed to squash the first section of the piece...then I realized by way of the VU meters that I could use the wet and dry knob on the H-Comp I could have a nice squashed sound and a sightly less compressed sound...all because the VU meter gave me the hint.
 
Ben
2015/07/18 22:04:07
ampfixer
I set up Sonars' meters to show RMS and Peak levels with the peaks locking. I'm not sure if I'm correct but my reasoning is to see where the transients are in relation to the body of the music. I can also see at a glance if the track is heavily compressed by simply looking at the space between the two meter signals.
 
I was using an old analogue system the other day and loved the old Tascam Vu meters. It would be cool if a meter bridge could be inserted into a DAW set-up. Something about those nice glowing meters.
2015/07/19 01:01:42
BenMMusTech
ampfixer
I set up Sonars' meters to show RMS and Peak levels with the peaks locking. I'm not sure if I'm correct but my reasoning is to see where the transients are in relation to the body of the music. I can also see at a glance if the track is heavily compressed by simply looking at the space between the two meter signals.
 
I was using an old analogue system the other day and loved the old Tascam Vu meters. It would be cool if a meter bridge could be inserted into a DAW set-up. Something about those nice glowing meters.




You are correct John re:rms and peak meters in Sonar...the Pro Channel ones are very usable too...just be careful if you use either the console emulator or tape sim ones if you switch between peak and rms on these two device's it actually changes the sound of the devices...no ****...I've only just worked this out in the last couple of weeks...amazing. 
 
Ben
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