If they come back, will they have to change their name to Encore? 

Hi,
 
As much as I don't want to see it, I think that the number of instruments will die down considerably in the next few years as the price of materials gets higher and the number of folks with this craftyest of abilities dies down, and there are not enough youngsters learning it all, when arts, in general, are being cut off a lot of schools curriculum and other stuff. Now you know what the Bush's did for the "arts". Kill them in schools!
 
What do you expect. Kid gets to 18 and all he/she sees is an aging dad/mom playing some **** they can't stand, and both mom and dad, don't like their own stuff? How the fudge can you get the kids to appreciate the musicianship required to be really good?
 
One last detail ... DAW's and composing electronic tools, are making the learning of playing ANY instrument a total joke, and on top of it, most of these players are only taught stuff that is out of time, place and the kids are not interested. Not to mention that some DJ's using just DAW's are starting to create much more interesting music than the same ol'crap.
 
My neighbor kid, is learning the piano and at 8 she's already pist off because she doesn't want to learn to play "When the Sainst Go Marching In" ... and THAT'S AN ISSUE! So you wnat her mom and I to quit learning music? She's only doing it because I asked and have shown her some neat things! And she goes ... can I do that? If you learn it, yeah!
 
Basically, the teaching of how to play an instrument is a lost art, and it shows ... the musicianship of some folks coming up, these days is not half as good as that of yesterday ... and that's a bad sign for our kids and the future and then ... we sit and cry that Ovation is gone ... it will be soon and many guitar makers will follow or combine with someone else!
 
WAKE UP ... why has this dream stopped?
(Jim M)
 

Well, then I guess only some people will play an instrument in Church.
No more singing, no more playing instruments in Church.
Yep!
 

spacealf
Well, then I guess only some people will play an instrument in Church.
No more singing, no more playing instruments in Church.
Yep!

A keyboard is cheap and can do all the instruments! No need to teach anyone else anything!
 
But yeah, the personal side of it all is going to get hurt when schools don't offer it because they need the money for football and baseball and basketball!
 
Ohhh and more time off for the teachers!

Moshkiae
Hi,
 
As much as I don't want to see it, I think that the number of instruments will die down considerably in the next few years as the price of materials gets higher and the number of folks with this craftyest of abilities dies down, and there are not enough youngsters learning it all, when arts, in general, are being cut off a lot of schools curriculum and other stuff. Now you know what the Bush's did for the "arts". Kill them in schools!
 
What do you expect. Kid gets to 18 and all he/she sees is an aging dad/mom playing some **** they can't stand, and both mom and dad, don't like their own stuff? How the fudge can you get the kids to appreciate the musicianship required to be really good?
 
One last detail ... DAW's and composing electronic tools, are making the learning of playing ANY instrument a total joke, and on top of it, most of these players are only taught stuff that is out of time, place and the kids are not interested. Not to mention that some DJ's using just DAW's are starting to create much more interesting music than the same ol'crap.
 
My neighbor kid, is learning the piano and at 8 she's already pist off because she doesn't want to learn to play "When the Sainst Go Marching In" ... and THAT'S AN ISSUE! So you wnat her mom and I to quit learning music? She's only doing it because I asked and have shown her some neat things! And she goes ... can I do that? If you learn it, yeah!
 
Basically, the teaching of how to play an instrument is a lost art, and it shows ... the musicianship of some folks coming up, these days is not half as good as that of yesterday ... and that's a bad sign for our kids and the future and then ... we sit and cry that Ovation is gone ... it will be soon and many guitar makers will follow or combine with someone else!
 
WAKE UP ... why has this dream stopped?
(Jim M)
 

 
Learning to play music has always been hard, and it is of course much harder for some than others. Some youngsters become obsessed with it enough to, you know, practice while others learn a few simple chords and songs and that's that. I don't see any of that changing.
 
In fact I think it's actually easier in the modern world as resources are more readily (and cheaply) available.
 
One might argue that a culture of instant gratification is at odds with the concept of practice, but there are also lots of musical instant gratification tools available. There will still be people who play with such things and want more enough to put some work into it.
 
And note that there's no shortage of athletes who will devote ridiculous hours and great sacrifice to honing their skills and preparing their bodies despite the same cultural influences.

Rimshot
Hey jbow, 
I read your thread about Yamaha FG's.  
I still own a  Yamaha FG-75 from the early '70's.  It was actually our go to acoustic for Sue Saad & The Next.  It records really well.  It looks like it have been through a war and I could never part with it.  
 
 

Yeah, I don't think I ever played an FG that I didn't like. They were and are (as far as I know except for something someone said that I don't exactly remember) great acoustic guitars.
 
Re: Fender, it seems to me that someone would have to be a REALLY poor businessperson to get Fender into trouble. Almost every guitar player wants a Fender, even Gibson guys want a Fender (the way Fender guys want a Gibson). Things like this always amaze me, that someone can take a company with products that are SO in demand and take it to the edge of disaster. If Ovation is making them bleed, they should stop the bleeding and continue on. You'd think that with a few new colors and an advertising campaign, they could resurrect it. I don't get it. If GC is a drain, they should turn it around or sell it. I mean it isn't like there aren't people out there who can do the job. Fender, Guitar Center, and Ovation are household names for guitarists. Guitar Center for all kinds of musicians (and parents). They should not be run into the ground, they should be turned around. MARS Music should have been turned around or downsized to manage the bleeding.
Stories like this make me wonder what the real story is. I have a small business, but the principle is the same. I had a little downturn when the housing market crashed but not too much, in any case I never considered closing my doors or selling. I certainly didn't borrow money to pour into a part of the market that was in trouble. Business is not that complicated so I think when large business gets in trouble it is because they have someone who is not capable making the decisions... IMO.
I guess in the case of Ovation and Fender acoustics they are trying to salvage the brands by lowering production cost. I hope they also improve the instruments and hit it with a good AD campaign, then maybe bring it back home if nothing else with a higher priced mad in USA model. I hope they know what they are doing.
 
The guitar may lose some mass appeal for a while but the electric guitar is probably the most expressive instrument ever made and people will soon tire of the manufactured music that is popular now and the guitar will be back in full force. IMO. I will continue to make up for several other people, lol. There is always another guitar I want.
 
J
 

jbowRe: Fender, it seems to me that someone would have to be a REALLY poor businessperson to get Fender into trouble.

It's called debt. It is what it is:
 
https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-rates-Fenders-new-secured-term-loan-B2-affirms-B2--PR_268799
 
 
How did they get in debt?:
http://finance.fortune.cn...fender-pulled-its-ipo/
 

Weston Presidio paid $57.8 million for its stake in Fender back in December 2001. Fender used the money from the sale to help pay the shareholders who had orchestrated Fender's buyout from CBS in 1985. In 2005, Weston Presidio recapitalized the company thanks to a $320 million debt-financing package from Goldman Sachs (GS). Under terms of the deal, Fender had to pay Weston Presidio (along with other shareholders and employees) a total of $215 million in dividends and bonuses.

 
Would you call someone who bought a controlling interest in a company for $57.8 million and then borrowed $320 million a few years later, of which it paid themselves a good portion of a total of $215 million in dividends and bonuses a "REALLY poor businessperson"? 

drewfx1

jbowRe: Fender, it seems to me that someone would have to be a REALLY poor businessperson to get Fender into trouble.

It's called debt. It is what it is:
 
https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-rates-Fenders-new-secured-term-loan-B2-affirms-B2--PR_268799
 
 
How did they get in debt?:
http://finance.fortune.cn...fender-pulled-its-ipo/
 

Weston Presidio paid $57.8 million for its stake in Fender back in December 2001. Fender used the money from the sale to help pay the shareholders who had orchestrated Fender's buyout from CBS in 1985. In 2005, Weston Presidio recapitalized the company thanks to a $320 million debt-financing package from Goldman Sachs (GS). Under terms of the deal, Fender had to pay Weston Presidio (along with other shareholders and employees) a total of $215 million in dividends and bonuses.

 
Would you call someone who bought a controlling interest in a company for $57.8 million and then borrowed $320 million a few years later, of which it paid themselves a good portion of a total of $215 million in dividends and bonuses a "REALLY poor businessperson"? 

drewfx1

jbowRe: Fender, it seems to me that someone would have to be a REALLY poor businessperson to get Fender into trouble.

It's called debt. It is what it is:
 
https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-rates-Fenders-new-secured-term-loan-B2-affirms-B2--PR_268799
 
 
How did they get in debt?:
http://finance.fortune.cn...fender-pulled-its-ipo/
 

Weston Presidio paid $57.8 million for its stake in Fender back in December 2001. Fender used the money from the sale to help pay the shareholders who had orchestrated Fender's buyout from CBS in 1985. In 2005, Weston Presidio recapitalized the company thanks to a $320 million debt-financing package from Goldman Sachs (GS). Under terms of the deal, Fender had to pay Weston Presidio (along with other shareholders and employees) a total of $215 million in dividends and bonuses.

 
Would you call someone who bought a controlling interest in a company for $57.8 million and then borrowed $320 million a few years later, of which it paid themselves a good portion of a total of $215 million in dividends and bonuses a "REALLY poor businessperson"? 

I'm not sure... yeah, it is good for that person but maybe not good for the future of the company. Then again, Fender (like Twinkies) will survive. He may be a good businessman, if you look at it in that light but I think I would have a few other titles for him too.
 
I understand the way things are done in this world. As I said, I have a small business. I started in 1989 and still own it. I am not like this sort of "businessman" so I will likely never be rich. I care about my customers. I worry about the time coming when I will sell my business, I think of the people who I have served for over 25 years and am not, unless I absolutely have to, going to sell to a large company who will not give persona and premium service. I have a standard rate but I do not charge higher prices because a customer is affluent, if their house is twice as big as normal I charge a little more. I charge less for people I know have little or are elderly and on a fixed income. I don't service churches for a reduced rate like some do, they have more money than anyone. BUT... I CARE about my customers more than I care about getting rich. I am not the cheapest one around but I am not the most expensive either, I am closer to the most expensive than I am to the cheapest but when we d a job, we take the time and trouble to do it right.
So, my only point of reference when considering a businessman like this Fender guy is me and the way I do business. In my thinking there is much more to being a good businessman than the bottom line. Yeah, I know the whole idea of being in business is to make a profit but there is also the consideration of the customer, care for the customer. I think a businessman who does not have an equal interest in the customer, in the customer's needs and providing a GOOD and affordable product for all income levels of the customer base and actually caring about the customer AS WELL AS MAKING A GOOD PROFIT FOR THE COMPANY AND SHAREHOLDERS... IS NOT, IMO... a good businessman... but that's just me.
 
J