Hello peeps,
 
It's stupid question time, from your friendly amateur composer/performer/tracker/mixer/mastering dood...
 
Compress or Limit? Or both?
 
I've googled this, and I can either find articles on compression/expansion or limiting. So I think I know the difference now (in simple terms, a limiter is like a compressor but more "drastic").
 
I am talking about during the mastering stage here, so this only applies to those effects applied to the master bus.
 
I'm just curious to get some thoughts on this...
 
cheers
 
andy

A limiter is almost mandatory on the master bus, as a safety precaution if nothing else. Compression is optional.
 
Historically, there have been good reasons for rigid dynamics control. First it was maintaining high percentages of modulation and consistent volume in radio, then staying within the physical limitations of vinyl, then getting the best signal to noise ratio on magnetic tape.
 
Nowadays, in the digital world those needs are no longer a concern,  but we've become so accustomed to the sound of compression that it remains standard practice. It's unnecessary from a technical standpoint, at least at the recording stage (it will always be needed for broadcasting) and audio engineers are slowly coming around to the idea that less compression can be a good thing.

bitflipper
A limiter is almost mandatory on the master bus, as a safety precaution if nothing else.

Hi Dave,
 
Thanks for your reply 
 
I'm finding that I am using my new Pro-L plug to bring my levels up, instead of tweaking levels using the faders of each track. I leave a bit of headroom, about 0.1dB, just to ensure that I don't clip. I get the relative levels correct first, of course, but then I slap on Pro-L to bring the level up, without having to worry about clipping.
 
I was thinking of getting the FabFilter compressors next, but I've since watched the Dan Worral tutorials and, especially with regard to multi-band compression, I'm out of my depth and I'll end up just using the presets.
 
I'm thinking more and more, reading your reply, and since I've spent the last eight hours doing a bit of "turd polishing," that I may well ditch compression altogether, especially at the mastering stage.

I am kinda with Bit on this one... kinda<G>.
 
I love the sound of a wide dynamic range - it is not always practical, but when it is...
 
Out of habit more than anything else I will use a limiter on the final stereo mix, but not on the 2-mix itself, unless I am aiming for that SSL sound. I usually apply some limiting in Wavelab or Sound Forge when I am polishing the final stereo wave file of the mix. I suppose I would end up with approximately the same result if  I applied it to the 2-mix, but that is not a habit I have to break<G>!
 
I use compression as an effect more than anything else when I am working with sample libraries. I use it more for it's intended purpose on live tracks, especially electric bass and fingerstyle guitar, and sometimes on vocals. But I've learned to use it after the fact, non-destructively, and just manage levels coming in.
 
So that's my take - dynamics processing is not as necessary to overcome shortcomings of FM exciters, magnetic tape or vinyl anymore. But it remains a very useful effect!

If you plan to listen at high volume, some compression is probably a good idea. I always limit a dB or two, but usually not more than 2.

Thanks for your take on the subject Bill.
 
One thing I can say for sure is that most of my stuff, how ever compressed or limited, does still have a lot of dynamic range. I've experimented with harsh compression to get that large blocky waveform, but I've never been keen on the results.
 
Main use now is to tame those odd peaks here and there. Even though I rarely record real instruments, soft synths, when summed together, can produce clipping peaks here and there. So, as I have alluded to above, it's me being lazy, rather than taking time to tone down the offending peak during mixing. I could even create a volume envelope to do the same (which is what I had to do on my latest upload to SoundCloud).
 
cheers 
 

Well, if you can afford Fab Filter they are very nice tools to have, even if you don't use them often. I don't compress much at the mastering stage, but it isn't a rule I have (A new song I'm working on seems to be better with more compression). Typically -1db from compression and -1db from the limiter. I have to suggest Tokyo Dawn Labs Kotelnikov mastering compressor. They have an excellent free version that I choose over several expensive one's often. I would also suggest LimiterNo.6. It's free and has a nice subtle compressor built in...It may be enough on it's own. Toneboosters is another good choice. I haven't heard many on this board talking about the new Bus compressor from Toneboosters, but I think it's another very good one and Barricade is a well reviewed Limiter. You could have both of those for $40. You could have the Kotelnikov and LimiterNo.6 for nothing.

+1 for Kotelnikov! On the rare occasions that I do use compression on the master bus, it'll be Kotelnikov. It's the only place I don't automatically put Pro-C on as the first choice.
 

Hi Clint,
 
Thanks for your advice 
 
I've visited the Kotelnikov website and watched the Dan Worrall video there. It appears that, seeing as it is free anyway, it would be rude not to give this a try. So thanks for putting me onto that 
 
I'll give the other options a miss for now, seeing as I have already invested in Pro-L and I like the GUI and controls. But thanks 
 
Regarding my original question, regarding using both a limiter and a compressor at the same time. I'm thinking along the lines of putting the limiter on the master bus first, to generally raise the level a bit, and then apply compression after that, more as an effect really.
 
I know that sounds a bit daft, and I suppose the best thing to do is carry out some experiments and see what happens.
 
cheers
 
andy

The problem with limiter -> compressor is that the compressor could cause overs that the limiter couldn't protect you from. It's OK to use the compressor's makeup gain to bring up overall levels and then have little to no gain in the limiter.