• Techniques
  • Suggestions on cost effective multi purpose Preamp/DI for guit/bass/vocals. $100-150? (p.3)
2015/06/11 03:32:21
lawajava
Quick search on Amazon found one at 149.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/...-37&condition=used

So the thing about the KB-37 is, not only does it have a "no latency" like experience when recording DI a fully-effected guitar/bass (by the amp sim of your choice) into Sonar (actually recording only the dry signal but you can hear the full on effects just like it is coming out of a live amp), additionally it has great preamps for vocals ("no latency" in headphones) and it even has a keyboard. I have four audio interfaces. By far this unit is more satisfactory for tracking / recording guitar and vocals than my other three units.

This thing is like my dog. It's always nearby, always reliable.
2015/06/11 04:09:52
Kev999
Beepster
What I need it for...
 
Doing clean DI guitar tracks which can then be mainipulated with sims. This is really the most important aspect. I want the most responsive/dynamic/braod freq range signal possible. Does not matter if it colors the sound. I just want it to make that clean signal as full, textured and useable as possible.
 
DI bass. Same deal as guitar. I need a good input signal from my single coil P-Bass.
 
Vocals. Something to warm up my semi crummy mics. I have a decent mixer with nice pres but certainly not as nice as a tube pre or well built solid state pre (if that is even a thing).
 
What I need from the unit...
 
Reasonably quiet with a ground lift or something to keep hum noise at bay.
 
Multi ins or XLR for vox and preferably 1000 ohm instrument input for direct guitar bass connections (or at least a decent input for attaching such instruments).
 
Thru-put to send out to an amp or whatever preferred.
 
Being able to take and condition the line outs of my amps or other effects pedals/units might be cool but I don't even know if that is appropriate for a preamp. I guess if it takes line level stuff though then that would work.
 
Thanks.

 
This small Mackie mixer will do all those things:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/402VLZ4
http://www.mackie.com/products/vlz4-series-compact-mixers
2015/06/11 12:01:21
Beepster
Howdy. Haven't abandoned the thread. Been thinking on/researching everything posted all morning. Have some thoughts and replies brewing but still poking around at some stuff (lol... I'm actually now reading some manuals to see EXACTLY what certain things will do for me). So far it looks like that ART Tube MP/C is the top contender (even though some of the other units may be better suited the MP/C is falling more in my price point). Just reading the manual on that one now to make sure it's the right fit... then it will be a matter of finding it up here in Canuckerland which can sometimes be half the battle.
 
Anyhoo... I'll be back. Brilliant thread and many thanks.
2015/06/11 12:01:21
Beepster
Dupe. D'oh!
2015/06/11 12:58:10
batsbrew
THIS is superior to the tube mp..
 
http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/vtb1.html
 
 
2015/06/11 13:35:42
Beepster
Studio Projects stuff was mentioned a few times in my intertube travels. At first glance that unit certainly looks like it'll do many of the things of the ART MP/C... for two thirds more though at the Canucker retailers which is still a great deal. As I do my budgeting though I'm definitely going to have to keep a reign on what I spend for a device of this kind. As it stands the ART unit (if I can find it locally to avoid shipping) is going to run $120CAD which with our loverly sales tax will bump it up to a little under $140.
 
To me worth it to get all the functions. After reading the manual I see it will actually be able to do re-amping stuff which would be AWESOME and I actually have ZERO outboard input compression which is kind of lame (and of course I have no tube stuff to warm/complexify signals). I'm not seeing much that will do all that stuff for as little and as much as it pains me to not just bite it and get the better units for a little more seeing as how a lot of these things are single channel and still cost effective I can always snag them later and have multiple units of varying quality for varying purposes. In fact considering the other, less complex ART units are actually $40 I may pick up one or two over time as finances allow for simple mic inputs for multi mic acoustic/vox type recordings. And then if I can actually make a go of my session work or compositions for sale business I'll get serious and try building some proper 500 series chains for input (which was another thing I've learned from this random query). That's at least a couple years away though.
 
These past two days of looking into all this have been very educational. Still gonna come back and reply to some of the other comments because there is some cool stuff being mentioned. Sooper cool thread.
 
Cheers.
2015/06/11 13:41:17
synkrotron
Hi Beep,
 
What do you currently use for getting audio into Sonar?
2015/06/11 14:41:30
Beepster
synkrotron
Hi Beep,
 
What do you currently use for getting audio into Sonar?




Hi Synkro... kind of a loaded question because over the past year I've mapped out a whole pile of signal paths using my outpboard gear. Probably best if I work backwards....
 
My Focusrite 18i6 is my main interface. I've got an Echo Layla 3g PCI card as well that I could use but it's a bit of bugger on my new MOBO which has "bridged" PCI (which is why I bought the Scarlett). However I can, in theory, use the Layla VIA the ADAT input on the Scarlett to obtain up to an extra 8 input channels (or switch to another driver mode and use them in tandem but I would never do that).
 
Blah blah... I use the Scarlett as my interface. We'll leave it at that.
 
My simple connection method is of course straight into the multi ins. Usually with my guitar using the Inst./Hi-Z setting because I can't really do vocals in this crummy apartment. It's a VERY nice input for both intrument (guitar/bass) connections and with an XLR for dynamic/condenser mics. I've recorded lots of stuff that way and for guitar it works well for certain amp sim settings but now I mostly use it just to practice and record test tracks. Then I fire up my outboard gear to do finals. My outboard gear is big and bulky and a PITA to use which is why I kind of want a simpler solution. It is also all older stuff and completely solid state and my routing options are decent there are certain things it simply will not do properly (like reamping or transparent DI).
 
So from there I've got a bunch of crap I can hook up in various configs. I guess it makes the most sense to mention my mixer because although I can connect a lot of gear directly to the Scarlett a lot of the time I opt to run through the mixer for the extra EQ, the direct channel outs and the nice mic pres (which I can use instead of the Scarlett pres as well as make use of the line inputs on the back of the Scarlett to get WAY more inputs).
 
The mixer is an OLD Mackie CR1604. It is from the pre Onyx era (so it does not have the Onyx pres which are SUPPOSEDLY superior but these old pres are very nice and crisp). It has direct out on the first 8 (of 16) channels that I can hook up to the 8 line inputs of the Scarlett (6 1/4" ins on the back and the two multi ins on the front). I generally leave two to three direct connections from the Mackie into the line ins on the back of the Scarlett so I can do the following...
 
I have two amps with XLR outputs. The first is a Line 6 Duoverb. This is a VERY old Line6 amp head from when they were first starting out. It's modelling is kind of um... old but it has decent clean tones and lots of routing options as well as two independent amp and output channels. So I can dial in two distinct tones on the two amp channels and output them individually from the balanced XLR outs straight into the Scarlett or into the mixer and then into the Scarlett. It also has 1/4" line outs as well but I have never used those because I think they are unbalanced so I haven't seen much reason to (but I guess I COULD plug them straight into the Scarlett... I think I would lose the output trim capability of the amp though which would suck... whatever). I can also "blend" the two channels into one channel that outputs from one of the balanced outputs (and it seems the second balanced output continues to output the single output from the second channel which is kind of cool).
 
Since the modelling is kind of cheesy (remember it's old tech) I use the Line 6 to get a better "clean" signal than I can from the Scarllet input and the fact I get two signals means I get two distinct clean tones which are easily pannable (unlike a clone which would just increase volume). However even in this regard it has problems. It is all transistor and the signal kind of fizzles out when you try to sustain a note. Like the signal gets a little wierd and fuzzy then cuts off abruptly when it dips below a certain level. It sucks. Totally fine for non stop thrashing though.
 
If I add some extra gain before the input of the amp I can defeat this. I recently discovered that by putting my MXR Gain pedal in front of it I can get the sustain I want BUT that pedal adds a lot of noise. The ART Tube pre claims to be able to be used before an amp so maybe it will do the same thing while injecting some tubeyness AND hopefully be a little less noisy but I do not expect that. Still it would be nice.
 
Anyway, I use the Line6 quite often for final takes setting both channels to the cleanest/brightest/strongest settings I can find that work the best with whatever sim I'm using in the computer (so I tweak the amp if need be to make the sim respond better then save it as a preset on the amps onboard memory which is another cool function). Then that'll go through the Mackie where I can EQ it a bit to get out any low rumble or add extra air/mid, into the line ins on the Scarlett then into Sonar and into the sims.
 
Complicated and annoying BUT it does produce better results than just plugging into the Instr in on the Scarlett and I get 2 channels to play with.
 
The otehr amp is my old Traynor TS140. A very nice sounding old school solid state amp. It has a single balanced XLR out that unfortunately outputs a kind of off kilter wave form but damned if the thing doesn;t sound nice. It also has a five band graphic EQ on board for sweetening the tone which makes it hit the sims very well. Unfortunately there is no output trim, it runs SUPER hot, I cannot increase the gain at all without activating the speakers or overloading the mixer (and I am afraid to disconnect the speaker because it would likely blow the head), etc. Essentially it is like a stunningly beautiful but finicky girlfriend that DEMANDS things to be just so. That again goes into the Mackie (it actually has to because I need to reduce the output signal).
 
For bass I of course have all those options as well and I recently found the Traynor seems to get the best results but I have not actually recorded bass through it yet. Still this is guitar equipment that has a tendency to strip away some of what a bass needs to get through a mix. The Scarlett input is "okay" for bass but really... it kind of sucks... okay... it sucks for bass. I'm thinking a tube pre/outboard compressor will help make that input work better and/or it will allow me to DI into the mixer so I can access the EQ section (the 3 band EQ strip on the Mackie is actually very VERY nice). Again that all goes into Sonar and either a sim or sometimes I just set up a few tracks with various drive/compression/eq settings to get a blended sound (this seems to work better than the sims I have many times).
 
For vox... well I never get to do vox anymore but may try again soon if just to test out my mics and do some low volume vox/voiceover stuff.
 
Thing is my mics are either dynamic mics and/or suck. The condensers I have are okay but budget models so they've got a weird thin sound to them. Essentially all my mics need something warm/fatten them up or in the case of the dynamic mics bring up and compress their levels.
 
Everything else I do is in the box so drums are no longer a part of the equation (although with a single channel unit I could go back and "reamp" old drum tracks one piece at a time which might be cool) and the only real synth I own is busted and I have so many FM sounds with Sonar I doubt I'd ever need its stock sounds (DX-7).
 
Oh... and I have some pedals and stuff but I rarely introduce those into my signal chain anymore aside from the AXFX5G that has some interesting stuff. But many are BOSS so I need to try out some of the stuff tlw was referring to earlier.
 
Looooooong answer is long BUT you asked and it may give folks an idea of WTF crazy old Beeps has and what he needs... or just be an interesting peek into another dude's studio.
 
Cheers.
2015/06/11 14:49:33
Beepster
And to reiterate... absolutely nothing I own has tubes of any kind or compression so as nice as some of my input options may be it is lacking that extra little oomph needed to take the signal from instrument/mic and do what it needs to with it.
 
Really I need the signals to be a little beefier and more complex to get everything else to do a better job. That's why I THINK some kind of pre will help me out immensely. I'm soooo close after all my experimenting but just not QUITE there. If I had a couple grand to drop I'm sure all these "problems" would go away in a flash because my needs are simple but I'm an aspiring king on a pauper's budget.
 
You know how it goes. lulz... FML
 
2015/06/11 15:05:38
synkrotron
Hahaha! Thanks Beeps... Yeah, a loooong answer that dood 
 
Concentrating on the guitars... Might I suggest that one of your problems may be that you've got too many options? I never had that much guitar stuff myself... Just a Boss GT-5, which was nice, but I never use it now.
 
I can see plenty of suggestions for DI boxes and what have you, but why can't we just plug our guitars straight into our interface, like your Scarlett, or my QUAD-CAPTURE (although mine is kinda busted and I'm also using a MMP-2 which connects to the QUAD-CAPTURE via SPDIF, so at least it is still in the digital domain).
 
Don't get me wrong... I'm asking this, only because, with all the stuff written above here makes it sound like I'm doing it all wrong, that is, connecting my guitar to my DAW via a simple interface and then getting all the amp modelling and effects within my DAW using Guitar Rig or TH2, or even something like FabFilter Volcano.
 
For me, at least, it makes things a lot easier... Less outboard gear and cables, and therefore less chance of introducing noise.
 
Downside, obviously, is missing out on using all that lurvly outboard gear and amps/speaker stacks...
 
And I can only record a maximum of two tracks at a time.
 
cheers
 
andy
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